Difference between revisions of "Skills rebalance proposal"

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=Skills rebalance proposal=
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=Introduction and purpose=
  
==Introduction and purpose==
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This document is solely for discussion purposes among players, primarily in the Community Council. This is an attempt at identifying OP skills (and a few other items in the tactical layer), describing why they are OP and presenting suggestions.
  
This document is solely for discussion purposes among players, primarily in the Community Council. This an attempt at identifying OP skills, describing why they are OP and presenting suggestions. 
+
Some common themes:
  
==Summary==
+
#Stacking damage buffs (from the skills [[file:Bloodlust.png|30px|link=#Bloodlust]] [[#Bloodlust]], [[file:Brawler.png|30px|link=#Brawler]] [[#Brawler]] and [[File:Sneak attack.png|30px|link=#Sneak Attack]] [[#Sneak Attack]], the personal perk [[file:Reckless.png|30px|link=personal perks#reckless|Reckless]] [[personal perks#reckless|Reckless]] and weapon profiencies perks, the [[Phoenix Project research#Vivisection|Vivisection]] and [[Synedrion Research#Moon Data analysis (1000)|Moon Data Analysis]]) and mixing them with skills/abilities that reduce [[Combat#aps|AP]] cost ([[file:Adrenaline_rush.png|30px|link=#Adrenaline Rush|Adrenaline Rush]] [[#Adrenaline Rush]], [[file:boom_blast.png|30px|link=#Boom Blast|Boom Blast]] [[#Boom Blast]], [[file:Vengeance torso25.jpg|x30px|link=#Vengeance Torso]] [[#Vengeance Torso]], [[file:quick_aim.png|30px|link=#Quick Aim|Quick Aim]] [[#Quick Aim]] and [[file:rage_burst.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#rage burst|Rage Burst]] [[classes and Skills#rage burst|Rage Burst]]) can result in absurdly high [[Combat#dps|DPS]]. <b>This can be appreciated in the [[combat#Damage Map|'damage map' presented here]]</b>. Absurdly high damage is not fun, because it renders any challenge trivial
 +
#Things that are OP as part of a meta-build are often of little use outside of it, not fitting the 'natural' role of the class
 +
#Things that are OP are often not 'tactical' because they render mute a choice between different alternatives
 +
#Things that are OP are often 'immersion breaking'
  
#[[file:assault_training.png|30px|link=#assault|Assault]] [[#Assault|Assault]]: changes to Ready for Action, Onslaught and Rapid Clearance
+
Not all the members of the Community Council were involved in the discussions that resulted in this document. Expressions such as "in general", "everybody", "nobody", "some of us", refers to participating members.
#[[file:Heavy_training.png|30px|link=#Heavy]] [[#Heavy|Heavy]]: problem with War Cry, changes to Boom Blast
 
#[[file:sniper_training.png|30px|link=#Sniper]][[#Sniper|Sniper]]: changes to Quick Aim
 
#[[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=#Berserker]] [[#Berserker|Berserker]]: general comment on class as inadequate for melee
 
#[[File:infiltrator_training.png|30px|link=#Infiltrator]] [[#Infiltrator|Infiltrator]]: changes to Sneak Attack
 
#[[file:Technician_training.png|30px|link=#Technician]] [[#Technician|Technician]]: changes to Manual Control
 
#[[file:Priest_training.png|30px|link=#Priest]] [[#Priest|Priest]]: changes to Frenzy
 
  
===Belial's list of grievances===
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The discussions focused on issues, rather than solutions. Some suggestions appear to be generally well-liked, while others are only liked by a few; as a rule, these suggestions should be taken as attempts at solving the issues, rather than as preferred solutions.
  
as a framework
+
This is, of course, not a comprehensive list of everything that could be improved in the tactical layer, but of the most pressing issues that diminish or prevent the enjoyment of the game by the more 'tactically' inclined players (as contrasted with players coming from the 'RPG' end of the playerbase), particularly those with some experience of the game.
  
# [[#Rapid Clearance]]: Allows to regenerate more AP than spent on kill resulting in infinite AP chain. Creates absurd synergy with many skills or equipment.
+
If this exercise proves useful, a similar one could be carried for the Geoscape/Strategic layer.  
# [[#Boom Blast]]: Allows to shoot 0 AP explosives with Vidar GL or Mounted Missles.
 
# [[#Bloodlust]]: Damage bonus does not require unit to approach enemy, so can be used to shoot grenades or sniper rifles from safe distance. Can stack with Sneak Attack.
 
# [[#Adrenaline Rush]]: Combined with Rapid Clearance create AP loop. Armored head mutation allow to negate Daze effect.
 
# [[#Manual Control]]: Abusable with Vehicles and Turrets, especially with multiple technicians.
 
# [[#Onslaught]]: Can be used to feed OP soldiers with AP.
 
# [[#Ready for Action]]: Allow to easily manipulate inventory of every soldier in a squad and saves too many AP.
 
# [[#Brawler]]: +50% damage is too much, especially with LOTA weapons.
 
  
Sneak Attack: Very easy to maintain stealth, especially by using Vanish. Technically it allows any unit to deal double damage with no drawback.
+
==Summary==
 
Frenzy: Max SPD in Phoenix Point is 29 (Agile Legs, Akatsu Armor, Thief, Quaterback) is further amplified by this. Nets +100% speed coupled with bloodlust and even more with Dash.
 
 
Warcry: Too easy to cripple enemies from safe spots like through roofs and walls. Too effective vs Skyllas.
 
  
+
===Skills===
Rage Burst: Too effective vs Skyllas, not good vs at all vs multiple smaller enemies. Only effective at very close ranges.
+
# [[#Rapid Clearance]]
 +
# [[#Manual Control]]
 +
# [[#Sneak Attack]]
 +
# [[#Quick Aim]]
 +
# [[#Boom Blast]]
 +
# [[#Adrenaline Rush]]
 +
# [[#Bloodlust]]
 +
# [[#Onslaught]]
 +
# [[#Vanish]]
 +
# [[#Brawler]]
 +
# [[#War Cry]]
 +
# [[#Ready for Action]]
  
Quick Aim: Synergy with Rapid Clearance.
+
===Other===
  
Master Marksman: Very large ACC bonus compared to other sources like Armor and General Perks which have been nerfed in Polaris.
+
# [[#Vengeance Torso]]
+
# [[#Bash and melee]]
Marked For Death: Too strong on Deceptor with Rage Burst or Scorcher AT with Remote Control.
+
# [[#Advanced Lasers]]
+
# [[#Biochemist]]
Destiny: Precision surpassing all sniper weapons in the game. Would that feel okay if used against player?
+
# [[#Frenzy]]
 +
# [[#Certain AI behaviors]]
  
Gorgon: Damage per AP is too big
+
=Skills=
  
Fire: AI commits suicide in fire.
+
==<span id="rapid clearance"></span> [[file:RapidC.png|40px|link=|Rapid Clearance]] Rapid Clearance==
 
Bionics: Too powerful with almost no drawbacks
 
  
Melee weapons: Unless you use Vengeance Torso fall behind Bash in terms of damage.
+
<code>Get back 2 [[Combat#aps|AP]] for each  kill until the end of the turn (cost 5[[character Development#wps|WP]]) </code>
  
Perception: Is too high for humans.
+
===Issues===
  
Stealth: easy to abuse. Too strong with Sneak Attack.
+
The skill can be used to gain more [[Combat#aps|AP]] than those spent on the kill, particularly when combined with skills that reduce the [[Combat#aps|AP]] cost of attacking ([[file:Adrenaline_rush.png|30px|link=#Adrenaline Rush|Adrenaline Rush]] [[#Adrenaline Rush]] [[file:quick_aim.png|30px|link=#Quick Aim|Quick Aim]] [[#Quick Aim]] [[file:boom_blast.png|30px|link=#Boom Blast|Boom Blast]] [[#Boom Blast]], or the [[file:Vengeance torso25.jpg|x30px|link=#Vengeance Torso]] [[#Vengeance Torso]]) and skills that increase damage (most notably [[file:Brawler.png|30px|link=#Brawler]] [[#Brawler]], [[file:Bloodlust.png|30px|link=#Bloodlust]] [[#Bloodlust]] or [[file:Sneak attack.png|30px|link=#Sneak Attack]] [[#Sneak Attack]]). This can result in very long "kill chains", up to cases where an operative can singlehandedly clear the whole map.  
  
Will gain/loss: Most skills pay for themself when used to kill enemies.
+
This trivializes the challenge and breaks immersion.
 
Nanotech: Makes some enemy weapons completely ineffective.
 
 
Cover: Most enemies are melee/psychic/explosive/high mobility - cover does not protect vs majority of opponents.
 
  
Acid Cannon: Bad in general, very OP vs Skylla.
+
Some of us feel that even when the skill does not refund more [[Combat#aps|AP]] than those spend on the skill, it can still be too strong with [[classes and Skills#extreme mobility|extreme mobility]] builds that take advantage of damage buffs and skills that reduce [[Combat#aps|AP]] costs.
 
Scorcher: Extremely high damage output amplified by Marked for Death and Remote Control.
 
 
VENGEANCE TORSO: Very powerful synergy with Rapid Clearance. Makes Synedrion (or NJ?) “The Melee” faction, where it should be disciples
 
 
Venom Torso: Poison arm is very weak and losing hand is a huge debuff.
 
  
=Bash and melee=
+
===Suggested Changes===
  
==Issues==
+
<code><b>Until the end of the turn, the next attack after a kill costs 2 [[Combat#aps|AP]] less </code></b>
  
In progress
+
<i>Reasoning: prevents net generation of [[Combat#aps|AP]] from kills </i>
  
Bash and melee can deal too much damage when compared to other types of attack
+
Alternative:
  
{|class=wikitable
+
<code><b>Until the end of the turn, the next attack after a kill costs 2 [[Combat#aps|AP]] less, can't use any [[#skill|skills]] or [[Combat#abilities|abilities]] that cost [[character Development#wps|WP]] after casting it </code></b>
|
 
! Bash (30 STR, using heavy weapon)
 
! Bash (35 STR, using heavy weapon)
 
! Melee (Marduk's Fist)
 
! Melee (Marduk's Fist + Vengeance Torso)
 
! Deceptor
 
|-
 
| Base damage per AP
 
| 150
 
| 175
 
| 80
 
| 160
 
| 140
 
|-
 
| +50% from [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] [[#brawler|brawler]]
 
| 225
 
| 263
 
| 120
 
| 240
 
| -
 
|-
 
| +20% from [[file:close_quarters_specialist.png|30px|link=personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]] [[personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]]
 
| 195
 
| 210
 
| 104
 
| 208
 
| -
 
|- style="background: grey"|
 
| [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] + [[file:close_quarters_specialist.png|30px|link=personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]]
 
| 255
 
| 298
 
| 136
 
| 272
 
| -
 
|-
 
| +50% from [[file:bloodlust.png|30px|link=#bloodlust|Bloodlust]] [[#bloodlust|bloodlust]]
 
| 225
 
| 263
 
| 120
 
| 240
 
| 210
 
|- style="background: grey"|
 
| [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] + [[file:close_quarters_specialist.png|30px|link=personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]] + [[file:bloodlust.png|30px|link=#bloodlust|Bloodlust]]
 
| 330
 
| 385
 
| 176
 
| 352
 
| 210
 
|-
 
| +10% from [[file:reckless.png|30px|link=personal_perks#reckless]] [[personal perks|reckless]]
 
| 165
 
| 193
 
| 88
 
| 176
 
| 154
 
|- style="background: grey"|
 
| [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] + [[file:close_quarters_specialist.png|30px|link=personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]] + [[file:bloodlust.png|30px|link=#bloodlust|Bloodlust]]+ [[file:reckless.png|30px|link=personal_perks#reckless]]
 
| 345
 
| 403
 
| 184
 
| 368
 
| 224
 
|-
 
| +10% from [[Phoenix Project research#Vivisection|vivisection research]]
 
| 165
 
| 193
 
| 88
 
| 176
 
| 154
 
|- style="background: grey"|
 
| [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] + [[file:close_quarters_specialist.png|30px|link=personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]] + [[file:bloodlust.png|30px|link=#bloodlust|Bloodlust]]+ [[file:reckless.png|30px|link=personal_perks#reckless]] + [[Phoenix Project research#Vivisection|vivisection research]]
 
| 380
 
| 443
 
| 203
 
| 405
 
| 246
 
|-
 
| +10% from [[Synedrion Research#Moon Data analysis (1000)|Moon Data analysis]]
 
| 165
 
| 193
 
| 88
 
| 176
 
| 154
 
|- style="background: grey"|
 
| [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] + [[file:close_quarters_specialist.png|30px|link=personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]] + [[file:bloodlust.png|30px|link=#bloodlust|Bloodlust]]+ [[file:reckless.png|30px|link=personal_perks#reckless]] + [[Phoenix Project research#Vivisection|vivisection research]] + [[Synedrion Research#Moon Data analysis (1000)|Moon Data analysis]]
 
| 418
 
| 487
 
| 222
 
| 445
 
| 271
 
|-
 
| +10 damage per attack from [[file:mark_for_death.png|30px|link=#mark for death|Mark for Death]] [[#mark for death|mark for death]]
 
| 160
 
| 185
 
| 85
 
| 170
 
| 180
 
|- style="background: grey"|
 
| [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] + [[file:close_quarters_specialist.png|30px|link=personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]] + [[file:bloodlust.png|30px|link=#bloodlust|Bloodlust]]+ [[file:reckless.png|30px|link=personal_perks#reckless]] + [[Phoenix Project research#Vivisection|vivisection research]] + [[Synedrion Research#Moon Data analysis (1000)|Moon Data analysis]] +[[file:mark_for_death.png|30px|link=#mark for death|Mark for Death]]
 
| 428
 
| 497
 
| 232
 
| 455
 
| 311
 
|-
 
|}
 
  
*Melee can benefit from [[file:sneak_attack.png|30px|link=#sneak attack|Sneak Attack]] [[#sneak attack|sneak attack]], but not so bash, which means that melee can get can additional +50% ([[file:sneak_attack.png|30px|link=#sneak attack|Sneak Attack]] has to replace either [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] or [[file:bloodlust.png|30px|link=#bloodlust|Bloodlust]]), to a maximum multiplier of <b>3.36</b>
+
<i>Reasoning: skill too strong already, synergies with other skills can be OP</i>
  
*With [[Legacy of the Ancients]] [[file:1scyther.png|30px|link=Berserker weapons#scyther|Scyther]] [[Berserker weapons#scyther|Scyther]] the damage that can be dealt with 1 AP (using Vengeance Torso) goes up to 1008
+
==[[File:Manual control.png|40px|link=]] <span id="manual control"></span>Manual Control==
 +
<code>Take manual control of a turret or vehicle weapon and shoot at a target (3[[character Development#wps|WP]] 1[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
  
=[[file:assault_training.png|60px|link=assault|Assault]] [[Assault]] <span id="assault"></span>=
+
===Issues===
  
- [[combat#proficiency|Proficient]] with assault rifles and shotguns (complete list [[Assault weapons|here]])  
+
Using [[File:Manual control.png|30px|link=]] Manual Control on [[technician weapons|turrets]] is a very cheap (in [[Combat#aps|AP]]) and reliable way of dealing massive damage, making the game too easy.
  
==[[File:Dash.png|40px|link=|Dash]] Dash <span id="dash"></span>==
+
There is some discussion as to whether this is due <b>primarily</b> to
  
<code>Move up to 1/2 of the [[character Development#movement|movement]] of the character (3[[character Development#wps|WP]] and 1[[Combat#aps|AP]]; limited to 2 uses per turn)</code> (e.g. with a [[character Development#movement|movement stat]] of 20, a soldier can move 10 tiles casting [[File:Dash.png|30px|link=|Dash]])
+
# Amount of damage that [[technician weapons|turrets]] deal and that they have too much ammo
 +
# [[File:Technician training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Technician|Technician]] [[classes and Skills#Technician|Technician]] being able to cast [[File:Manual control.png|30px|link=]] an unlimited number of times, only limited by [[Combat#aps|AP]] (which can be refunded via [[File:Rally the troops.png|30px|link=#Onslaught]] [[#Onslaught]])  
 +
# That each device can be activated an unlimited number of times
  
==[[File:Return_fire2.png|40px|link=|Return Fire]] <span id="return fire"></span>Return Fire==
+
However, there is a general agreement that to some extent all of these elements contribute to the above-stated issue.
<code>Shoot back at an enemy when it attacks, provided that character is using a direct-fire projectile weapon with [[Combat#proficiency|proficiency]], and the enemy is within half [[Character Development#perception|perception]] range (passive skill)</code>
 
  
 +
In addition, some players feel that this is also immersion breaking because it unexpectedly stretches out time - why is the device capable of taking an unlimited number of actions?
  
==[[File:Ready_for_action.png|40px|link=]]<span id="ready for action"></span>Ready for Action==
+
===Suggested change===
<code>Reloading and inventory management costs 0 [[Combat#aps|AP]] (passive skill)</code>
 
  
===Issues===
+
Reduce damage and ammo capacity of all turrets
  
Some of us find it immersion breaking that  this skill can be used to allow operatives closely packed together to share a single weapon and to reload it for free. Some of us don't see an issue with this.
+
<code>Take manual control of a turret or vehicle weapon and shoot at a target, <u><b>limited to one use per turn per device</u></b> (3[[character Development#wps|WP]] 1[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
  
For those who do see a problem, the issue is that all manipulation of inventory, whether giving or receiving items is done at 0 AP cost. This is what creates a situation where the operative can get a weapon from soldier A, reload it, give it to solder B, who will fire it, then the operative will take it, reload it, and pass it on to soldier C, without anybody using up any time (or paying AP) for equipment sharing.
+
<i>Reasoning: prevents a device from being activated more than once, more respectful with the integrity of the time-space continuum</i>
 
 
===Suggested change===
 
 
 
<code>Reloading and inventory management <u><b>of the operative</u></b> costs 0 [[Combat#aps|AP]] (passive skill)</code>
 
  
 
Alternative:
 
Alternative:
  
<code>Reloading <s>and</s><b><u>,</b></u> inventory management <u><b>of the operative and giving items to other characters</u></b> costs 0 [[Combat#aps|AP]] (passive skill)</code>
+
<code>Take manual control of a turret or vehicle weapon and shoot at a target, <u><b>limited to 2 uses per turn</u></b> (3[[character Development#wps|WP]] 1[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
  
==<span id="onslaught"></span>[[File:rally_the_troops.png|40px|link=|Onslaught]] Onslaught==
+
<i>Reasoning: prevents a [[File:Technician training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Technician|Technician]] [[classes and Skills#Technician|Technician]] from spamming the skill, easy to understand</i>
<code>Refunds 2[[Combat#aps|AP]] to another operative within 10 tiles, can only be used once per turn by the same soldier (cost 4[[character Development#wps|WP]] and 2[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
 
  
===Issues===
+
==<span id="sneak attack"></span>[[File:Sneak attack.png|40px|link=|Sneak Attack]]Sneak Attack==
 
+
<code>Damage dealt while not spotted is increased by 100% (passive)</code>
The same character can be the recipient of multiple castings of the skill by different soldiers ("Cheerleading"). This is immersion breaking, because a single soldier ends up with 8 AP or more (where is that time coming from?), and somewhat OP, in that you can channel AP towards an Uber soldier that can optimize their utility.
 
 
 
===Suggested change===
 
 
 
<code>Refunds 2[[Combat#aps|AP]] to another operative within 10 tiles, can only be used once per turn by the same <u><b>and on the same</u></b> soldier (cost 4[[character Development#wps|WP]] and 2[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
 
 
 
Alternative:
 
 
 
<code>Refunds 2[[Combat#aps|AP]] to another operative within 10 tiles, can only be used once per turn <s>by the same</s> <u><b>on the same</u></b> soldier (cost 4[[character Development#wps|WP]] and 2[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
 
 
 
<i>Reasoning: no reason to stop an operative from casting the skill twice, if each time it is cast on a different soldier</i>
 
 
 
==<span id="rapid clearance"></span> [[file:RapidC.png|40px|link=|Rapid Clearance]] Rapid Clearance==
 
 
 
<code>Get back 2 [[Combat#aps|AP]] for each  kill until the end of the turn (cost 5[[character Development#wps|WP]]) </code>
 
  
 
===Issues===
 
===Issues===
  
The skill can be used to gain more AP than those spent on the kill (particularly when combined with other skills such as Adrenaline Rush, Quick Aim and Boom Blast, and the Vengeance Torso), which results in very long "kill chains", up to cases where an operative can singlehandedly clear the whole map.
+
There is general agreement that
  
This trivializes the challenge and breaks immersion.
+
#the damage buff of +100% is too high in general but some of us think it is necessary for the crossbows, which is probably more likely a problem with the weapons itself
 +
#it stacks too well with buffs from other skills ([[file:Bloodlust.png|30px|link=#Bloodlust]] [[#Bloodlust]], [[file:Brawler.png|30px|link=#Brawler]] [[#Brawler]]), perks ([[file:Reckless.png|30px|link=personal perks#reckless|Reckless]] [[personal perks#reckless|Reckless]] and [[personal perks|weapon proficiency perks]]), researches ([[Phoenix Project research #Vivisections|Vivisection]] and [[Synedrion Research#Moon Data analysis (1000)|Moon Data Analysis]]) and combined with skills that reduce [[Combat#aps|AP]] cost ([[file:Adrenaline_rush.png|30px|link=#Adrenaline Rush|Adrenaline Rush]] [[#Adrenaline Rush]], [[file:quick_aim.png|30px|link=#Quick Aim|Quick Aim]] [[#Quick Aim]], [[file:boom_blast.png|30px|link=#Boom Blast|Boom Blast]] [[#Boom Blast]], [[file:rage burst.png|30px|link=#Rage Burst]] [[#Rage Burst]] and [[file:Vengeance torso25.jpg|x30px|link=#Vengeance Torso]] [[#Vengeance Torso]]); this allows dealing absurd amounts of damage, like 1016 with a [[file:1scyther.png|30px|link=Berserker weapons#scyther|Scyther]] [[Berserker weapons#scyther|Scyther]] for one hit and 1 [[Combat#aps|AP]] (multiplier of 3.39), or one-shooting a [[file:Scylla icon.png|30px|link=Scyllas|Scylla]] [[Scyllas|Scylla]], using [[file:rage burst.png|30px|link=#Rage Burst]] [[#Rage Burst]] and a [[file:1deceptor.png|30px|link=heavy weapons#deceptor|Deceptor MG]] [[heavy weapons#deceptor|Deceptor MG]]. <b>See [[Combat#Damage Map|Damage Map]] for concrete numbers</b>
 +
#the condition ("not spotted") is trivial, as at most it requires a single casting of [[file:Vanish.png|30px|link=#Vanish]] [[#Vanish]] per turn
  
Some of us feel that even when the skill does not refund more AP than those spend on the skill, it can still be too strong with high mobility builds that take advantage of damage buffs and skills that reduce AP costs.
+
Together, this
 +
#trivializes the challenge
 +
#means there are no interesting tactical choices in using this skill, beyond the meta combinations; it's a pure massive damage increase for all attacks as a result of reaching LVL7
  
===Suggested Changes===
+
===Suggested change===
  
<code><b>Until the end of the turn, the next attack after a kill costs 2 [[Combat#aps|AP]] less </code></b>
+
In general, nobody is happy with this skill and everybody would prefer if it was replaced with something else.
  
<i>Reasoning: prevents net generation of [[Combat#aps|AP]] from kills </i>
+
Nevertheless, here go some suggestions:
  
Alternative:
+
<code>While not spotted, attack a target with a proficient direct fire or melee weapon dealing 50% extra damage. Character will be revealed unless weapon is silent (4[[character Development#wps|WP]] +  standard [[Combat#aps|AP]] cost of firing the weapon)</code>
  
<code><b>Until the end of the turn, the next attack after a kill costs 2 [[Combat#aps|AP]] less, can't use any [[#skill|skills]] or [[Combat#abilities|abilities]] that cost [[character Development#wps|WP]] after casting it </code></b>
+
<i>Reasoning: 1) reduces damage buff, 2) prevents the damage buff from scaling further with [[file:quick_aim.png|30px|link=#Quick Aim|Quick Aim]] [[#Quick Aim]], [[file:boom_blast.png|30px|link=#Boom Blast|Boom Blast]] [[#Boom Blast]], [[file:Adrenaline_rush.png|30px|link=#Adrenaline Rush|Adrenaline Rush]] [[#Adrenaline Rush]] and [[file:rage_burst.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#rage burst|Rage Burst]] [[classes and Skills#rage burst|Rage Burst]], 3) introduces a double cost, of [[character Development#wps|WP]] and loss of stealth, to make decision to use skill none-trivial</i>
  
<i>Reasoning: skill too strong already, synergies with other skills can be OP</i>
+
==<span id="quick aim"></span>[[file:quick_aim.png|40px|link=|Quick Aim]] Quick Aim==
  
=[[file:Heavy_training.png|60px|link=Heavy]] [[Heavy]] <span id="heavy"></span>=
+
<code> The [[Combat#aps|AP]] cost of the next shot with [[combat#proficiency|proficient]] weapon is reduced by 1 (3[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
  
- [[combat#proficiency|Proficient]] with machine guns, cannons and grenade launchers (see complete list [[heavy weapons|here]])
+
===Issues===
  
==<span id="brawler"></span>[[file:brawler.png|40px|link=|Brawler]] Brawler==
+
There is general agreement that
  
<code>[[combat#Melee|Bash and melee attacks]] deal 50% more damage (passive skill)</code>
+
# Allowing an unlimited number of 0 [[Combat#aps|AP]] attacks is bad because they are free attacks, which can make the game too easy. However, some of us think that discretionary (on the player's turn) free attacks are always bad, while some of us think that what's bad is that they are unlimited.
 +
# The skill is too spammable: it can be used any number of times, the [[character Development#wps|WP]] cost is easy to recover (as killing enemies refunds spent [[character Development#wps|WP]]) and there is no reason not to use it every time as a means of increasing damage output by up to a 100% (for 2 [[Combat#aps|AP]] weapons, or if considering 3[[Combat#aps|AP]] weapons used twice in the same turn); optimal choice is no choice, no choice means no tactics.
  
===Issues===
+
===Suggested change===
  
This skill is not useful to Heavy outside of meta builds, either 'basher' (more on that below) or meta multi-class melee builds where this skill is used to buff melee damage (for example, Assault/Heavy, or Infiltrator/Heavy, either of them in combination with Vengeance Torso).
+
<code> The [[Combat#aps|AP]] cost of the next shot with [[combat#proficiency|proficient]] weapon is reduced by 1 (3[[character Development#wps|WP]]), <b><u>limited to 2 uses per turn</code></b></u>
  
Bashing can deal too much damage when compared to melee (see [[#Bash and melee]]), which is unintuitive, as a proficient and dedicated melee strike should deal more damage than a bash, and when compared to the DPS of a Heavy weapon (more often than not clubbing with a heavy weapon is preferable to shooting with it), and the drawback for bashing - damage to the weapon - is insufficient to compensate for the much higher DPS.
+
<i>Reasoning: prevents spamming the skill with 1[[Combat#aps|AP]] weapons to get free attacks, but allows the most common use of the skill to shoot twice with a [[sniper weapons|sniper rifle]] per turn and keeps a limited synergy with 1 [[Combat#aps|AP]] weapons; also similar solution to [[file:dash.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#dash|Dash]] [[classes and Skills#dash|Dash]], so easy to understand</i>
  
Some of us think that this is because damage to the weapon is not sufficient (25% of damage dealt - 20, for armor of the weapon); as weapons get repaired for free after the mission this drawback would only be effective if there was substantial risk that the weapon would be destroyed. Some of us think that damage to the weapon is not enough of a drawback, as it can be avoided by carrying many weapons.
+
Alternative
  
Summing up, this is another skill (like [[#Bloodlust]] that is <b>not useful</b> for the class when played outside of meta <b>and too useful</b> as a meta ingredient.
+
<code> The [[Combat#aps|AP]] cost of the next shot with [[combat#proficiency|proficient]] weapon is reduced by 1 <b><u>to a minimum of 1</b></u>(3[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
  
===Suggested change===
+
<i>Reasoning: prevents getting free attacks altogether, but allows the most common use of the skill to shoot twice with a [[sniper weapons|sniper rifle]] per turn </i>
  
Some of us feel that the skill should be removed and replaced with something else. It doesn't really fit the sandbox approach where all skills are useful to all classes, since it's only useful for melee. It's also singularly uninteresting, being a straight, unconditional buff to damage. Some of us think that it should be at least moved to Berserker, as it would fit its nominal role.
+
Note that some of us feel that these suggestions, though improving the skill overall, don't address the fact that casting it is a "no brainer" because of how easy it is to recover [[character Development#wps|WP]] in the game and it would be good to add accuracy penalty to the shot.
 
 
==<span id="war cry"> </span>[[file:war_cry.png|40px|link=|War Cry]] War Cry==
 
<code>Limits the [[Combat#aps|AP]] of all enemies within 10 tiles to 2 (3[[character Development#wps|WP]] 1[[Combat#aps|AP]]) </code>
 
 
 
Problems: it is OP and immersion breaking that the skill affects large Pandorans, particularly Scylla, and that it works through any wall or obstacle.
 
  
 
==<span = "boom blast"></span>[[file:boom_blast.png|40px|link=|Boom Blast]] Boom Blast==
 
==<span = "boom blast"></span>[[file:boom_blast.png|40px|link=|Boom Blast]] Boom Blast==
Line 313: Line 175:
 
===Issues===
 
===Issues===
  
Explosives can be particularly powerful weapons because they do blast (and typically shred) damage, have area of effect and don't require [[Combat#los|Line of Sight]]. They also scale too well with damage buffs, such as those from Sneak Attack and Bloodlust.
+
Explosives can be particularly powerful weapons because they do [[file:1blast.png|30px|link=damage types#Blast Damage|Blast Damage]] [[damage types#Blast Damage|Blast Damage]] (and typically [[file:1shred.png|30px|link=damage types#Shred Damage|Shred Damage]] [[damage types#Shred Damage|Shred Damage]]) damage, have area of effect and don't require [[Combat#los|Line of Sight]]. They also scale too well with damage buffs, such as those from [[File:Sneak attack.png|30px|link=#Sneak Attack]] [[#Sneak Attack]] and [[file:Bloodlust.png|30px|link=#Bloodlust]] [[#Bloodlust]].
  
This skill allows a single operative to use a grenade launcher and a mounted weapon, or throw up to 4 grenades and use a mounted weapon or shot the Vidar launcher an unlimited number of times (when used together with Ready for Action), in a single turn, at very long range.
+
This skill allows a single operative to use a [[heavy weapons#launchers|launcher]] and a [[heavy weapons#mounted launchers|mounted weapon]], or throw up to 4 [[grenades]] and use a [[heavy weapons#mounted launchers|mounted weapon]] or shoot the [[file:vidar.png|30px|link=assault weapons#vidar|Vidar Grenade Launcher]] [[assault weapons#vidar|Vidar Grenade Launcher]] an unlimited number of times (when used together with [[File:Ready_for_action.png|30px|link=#Ready for Action]] [[#Ready for Action]]), in a single turn, at very long range.
  
It also allows reloading grenade and rocket launchers, and firing Destiny III for 0 AP.  
+
It also allows reloading [[heavy weapons#launchers|launchers]] and [[heavy weapons#mounted launchers|mounted weapons]], and firing [[file:1destiny3.png|30px|link=#Destiny III]] [[#Destiny III]] for 0 [[Combat#aps|AP]].  
  
 
This trivializes the challenge, making the game too easy.  
 
This trivializes the challenge, making the game too easy.  
  
There is general agreement that being able to use explosive weapons (and Destiny III) for 0 AP is most responsible for this.  
+
There is general agreement that being able to use explosive weapons (and [[file:1destiny3.png|30px|link=#Destiny III]] [[#Destiny III]]) for 0 [[Combat#aps|AP]] is most responsible for this.  
  
There is some discussion as to whether the extra 50% range plays a relevant role, or the ability to deliver a large number of explosives at different points on the map very accurately (as with grenades using a high-strength build).
+
There is some discussion as to whether the extra 50% range plays a relevant role, or the ability to deliver a large number of explosives at different points on the map very accurately (as with [[grenades]] using a high-strength build).
  
 
===Suggested change===
 
===Suggested change===
Line 329: Line 191:
 
<code>Reduces the cost of using explosives by 1 [[Combat#aps|AP]] <u><b>to a minimum of 1</u></b> and increases their range by 50% until the end of the turn (5[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
 
<code>Reduces the cost of using explosives by 1 [[Combat#aps|AP]] <u><b>to a minimum of 1</u></b> and increases their range by 50% until the end of the turn (5[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
  
<i>Reasoning: prevents using mounted weapons or Vidar Launcher for 0 AP</i>
+
<i>Reasoning: prevents using mounted weapons or [[file:vidar.png|30px|link=assault weapons#vidar|Vidar Grenade Launcher]] [[assault weapons#vidar|Vidar Grenade Launcher]] for 0 [[Combat#aps|AP]]</i>
  
 
Alternative
 
Alternative
Line 335: Line 197:
 
<code> The [[Combat#aps|AP]] cost of the next use of explosives is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1 and their range is increased by 50%, limited to 2 uses per turn (3[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
 
<code> The [[Combat#aps|AP]] cost of the next use of explosives is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1 and their range is increased by 50%, limited to 2 uses per turn (3[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
  
<i>Reasoning: prevents using mounted weapons or Vidar Launcher for 0 AP and limits the number of explosive that can be used per turn </i>
+
<i>Reasoning: prevents using [[heavy weapons#mounted launchers|mounted weapons]] or [[file:vidar.png|30px|link=assault weapons#vidar|Vidar Grenade Launcher]] [[assault weapons#vidar|Vidar Grenade Launcher]] for 0 [[Combat#aps|AP]] and limits the number of explosive that can be used per turn </i>
  
==<span id ="inspire></span>[[file:inspire.png|40px|link=|Inspire]] Inspire==
+
==<span id="adrenaline rush" ></span>[[file:Adrenaline_rush.png|40px|link=|Adrenaline Rush]] Adrenaline Rush==
<code>Killing an enemy grants allies 1 additional [[character Development#wps|WP]] (passive skill)</code>
 
  
==<span id="rage burst"></span>[[file:rage_burst.png|40px|link=|Rage Burst]] Rage Burst==
+
<code> All abilities cost 1 [[Combat#aps|AP]] until the end of the turn, can't use any [[#skill|skills]] or [[Combat#abilities|abilities]] that cost [[character Development#wps|WP]] after casting it, [[Combat#Accuracy|Accuracy]] reduced by 50% and you are [[file:dazed.png|30px|link=status effects#DAZED|Dazed]] [[status effects#DAZED|dazed]] the next turn (5[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
<code> Fire the weapon 5 times in an arc, limited to one use per turn by the same soldier (5[[character Development#wps|WP]] + standard [[Combat#aps|AP]] cost of firing the weapon)</code>
 
  
=[[file:sniper_training.png|60px|link=sniper|Sniper]][[Sniper]]=
+
===Issues===
  
- [[combat#proficiency|Proficient]] with sniper rifles and pistols (see complete list [[sniper weapons|here]]).
+
<i>General comment: There seems to be close to universal agreement that [[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker]] [[classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]] skillset is uniquely unsuited for its nominal role of melee fighter</i>
  
 +
There is general agreement that:
  
 +
#The skill is not useful to its class outside of a meta build; there is no reason to use it for melee attacks ([[file:Vengeance torso25.jpg|x30px|link=#Vengeance Torso]] [[#Vengeance Torso]] is a much better option in every regard) or with the [[File:1nergal.png|30px|link=sniper weapons#nergal|Nergal's Wrath]] [[sniper weapons#nergal|Nergal's Wrath]] (an unpopular weapon, that even at double [[Combat#dps|DPS]] isn't impressive, especially for a capstone ability).The real utility of this skill lies in using 3 [[Combat#aps|AP]] weapons, which 1) the [[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker]] [[Berserker]] is not proficient in, and 2) do not fit the class nor the skill thematically, all but forcing the player into using [[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker]] [[Berserker]] as a meta class. 
 +
#The skill is too effective in meta builds (with [[file:Bloodlust.png|30px|link=#Bloodlust]] [[#Bloodlust]] + [[file:RapidC.png|30px|link=#Rapid Clearance]] [[#Rapid Clearance]]/[[File:Sneak attack.png|30px|link=#Sneak Attack]] [[#Sneak Attack]] + [[file:1deceptor.png|30px|link=heavy weapons#deceptor|Deceptor MG]] [[heavy weapons#deceptor|Deceptor MG]]/[[Sniper weapons#sniper rifles|Sniper Rifles]] /[[heavy weapons#launchers|launcher]]): even when the meta-[[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker]] [[Berserker]] is unable to clear entire maps on its own, it can deal too much damage, trivializing the challenge. 
 +
#The malus piled on the skill (50% accuracy malus, [[file:dazed.png|30px|link=status effects#DAZED|Dazed]] [[status effects#DAZED|dazed]] next turn and can't use [[character Development#wps|WP]] abilities) in reality further pigeonholes the [[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker]] [[Berserker]] into contrived meta builds and prevents certain natural synergies (like [[file:Stomp attack.png|30px|link=mutations#stomper|Stomp]] [[mutations#stomper|Stomp]], [[file:1shock.png|30px|link=mutations#tentacle|Tentacle Attack]] [[mutations#tentacle|Tentacle Attack]] and all [[file:Priest_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Priest|Priest]] [[classes and Skills#Priest|Priest]] active abilities), while the [[file:dazed.png|30px|link=status effects#DAZED|Dazed]] [[status effects#DAZED|dazed]] next turn malus simply forces the player into giving all [[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker]] [[classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserkers]] the [[File:armored head.jpg|x30px|link=mutations|Armored Head mutation]] [[mutations|Armored Head mutation]].
  
==<span id="extreme_focus"></span>[[file:extreme_focus.png|40px|link=]] Extreme Focus</span>==
+
===Suggested change===
  
<code>[[Combat#overwatch|Overwatch]] cost is reduced by 1 [[Combat#aps|action point]](passive skill)</code>  
+
<code>All abilities until the end of the turn cost -1 [[Combat#aps|AP]] to a minimum of 1 [[Combat#aps|AP]], but cannot gain any [[character Development#wps|WP]]. Does not work with [[file:quick_aim.png|30px|link=#Quick Aim|Quick Aim]] [[#Quick Aim]], [[file:boom_blast.png|30px|link=#Boom Blast|Boom Blast]] [[#Boom Blast]] or [[file:rage_burst.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#rage burst|Rage Burst]] [[classes and Skills#rage burst|Rage Burst]] <i>(or [[File:Sneak attack.png|30px|link=#Sneak Attack]] [[#Sneak Attack]], if changed as suggested)</i> (5[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
  
 +
<i>Reasoning: makes the skill useful for [[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]] [[classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker's]] nominal role, while allowing a much wider range of interesting synergies for multiclass builds (for example, a [[file:Heavy_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#heavy|Heavy]]/[[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker]] that can [[file:jet jump.png|30px|link=classes and skills#jet jump|Jet Jump]], melee strike and [[file:stomp attack.png|30px|link=mutations#stomper|Stomp]] [[mutations#stomper|Stomp]] on the same turn). Clear and easy to understand</i>
  
 +
Alternative:
  
==<span id="quick aim"></span>[[file:quick_aim.png|40px|link=|Quick Aim]] Quick Aim==
+
<code>After taking a shot with proficient weapon move up to 3 tiles and attack with melee strike or bash for free (5[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
  
<code> The [[Combat#aps|AP]] cost of the next shot with [[combat#proficiency|proficient]] weapon is reduced by 1 (3[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
+
==<span id="bloodlust"></span>[[file:Bloodlust.png|40px|link=|Bloodlust]] Bloodlust==
  
 +
<code>[[combat#Standard Damage|Damage]] and [[Character Development#movement|movement]] are increased proportionally to the health lost (up to double) (passive)</code>
  
Suggested change:
+
===Issues===
  
<code> The [[Combat#aps|AP]] cost of the next shot with [[combat#proficiency|proficient]] weapon is reduced by 1 (3[[character Development#wps|WP]]), <b><u>limited to 2 uses per turn</code></b></u>
+
There are several problems with this skill, directly connected to the general problem with the class as a whole, in that its skillset is inadequate for its enunciated role (melee fighter).
  
<i>Reasoning: prevents spamming the skill with 1[[Combat#aps|AP]] weapons to get free attacks, but allows the most common use of the skill to shoot twice with a sniper rifle per turn and keeps a limited synergy with 1 [[Combat#aps|AP]] weapons; also similar solution to dash, so easy to understand</i>
+
#There is general agreement that there are problems with the way the skill is triggered and the speed and damage buffs obtained; nobody likes that the damage and speed buffs can be triggered by friendly fire or not healing the [[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]] [[classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]] between missions, but for different reasons:
 +
## Some of us don't like that the only way to control the amount of [[character Development#hps|HP]] lost is through friendly fire/not healing the [[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]] [[classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]] between missions, as this makes the skill less useful unless you attack your own operative, which some players are reluctant to do and is immersion breaking (how can the soldier remain under the effects of [[file:Bloodlust.png|30px|link=#Bloodlust]] [[#Bloodlust]] for an injury suffered a month ago?). At the same time, some of us feel that being able to control the amount of [[character Development#hps|HP]] lost makes the condition to obtain the benefits of the skill trivial.
 +
## Some of us feel that the game ordinarily doesn't favor having an operative with low [[character Development#hps|HP]]: it's too risky, as there are no bleed out mechanics, using the skill for melee is a sure way of getting the [[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]] [[classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]] killed. However, some of us think that the skill could work for melee as a high risk high reward proposition, but that right now it's an unattractive option because the skill works just as well with ranged attacks without any risk.
 +
#There is also general agreement that the speed and damage buff can be abused in a meta build, particularly using other skills that further increase damage ([[File:Sneak attack.png|30px|link=#Sneak Attack]] [[#Sneak Attack]], [[file:Brawler.png|30px|link=#Brawler]] [[#Brawler]]) or Speed ([[file:frenzied.png|30px|link=#Frenzy]] [[#Frenzy]]), and those that allow recovering [[Combat#aps|AP]] ([[file:RapidC.png|30px|link=#Rapid Clearance]] [[#Rapid Clearance]] and [[File:rally_the_troops.png|30px|link=#Onslaught]] [[#Onslaught]]), as well as skills that reduce [[Combat#aps|AP]] cost of attacks ([[file:Adrenaline_rush.png|30px|link=#Adrenaline Rush|Adrenaline Rush]] [[#Adrenaline Rush]], [[file:boom_blast.png|30px|link=#Boom Blast|Boom Blast]] [[#Boom Blast]], [[file:quick_aim.png|30px|link=#Quick Aim|Quick Aim]] [[#Quick Aim]] and [[file:rage_burst.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#rage burst|Rage Burst]] [[classes and Skills#rage burst|Rage Burst]]).
 +
#The general feeling is that this skill is not very useful unless employed as an ingredient in a meta-build, in which case it is very much OP.
  
==<span id="marksman"></span>[[file:master_marksman2.png|40px|link=|Master Marksman]] Master Marksman==
+
===Suggested change===
  
<code>[[Combat#Accuracy|Accuracy]] with a [[combat#proficiency|proficient]] weapon is increased by 30% while there are no spotted enemies within 10 tiles (passive skill)</code>
+
A variety of very diverse changes may be suggested, but the general consensus is that a serious discussion has to be preceded by a clear indication whether the [[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]] [[classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]] class and/or this skill in particular can be geared specifically towards a melee role, or whether it has to stay as it is now; an abstraction that could be potentially useful for any class/build.
  
 +
==<span id="onslaught"></span>[[File:rally_the_troops.png|40px|link=|Onslaught]] Onslaught==
 +
<code>Refunds 2[[Combat#aps|AP]] to another operative within 10 tiles, can only be used once per turn by the same soldier (cost 4[[character Development#wps|WP]] and 2[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
  
 +
===Issues===
  
==<span id="Weakspot"></span>[[file:Weak_spot2.png|40px|link=|Weak Spot]] Weak Spot==
+
The same character can be the recipient of multiple castings of the skill by different soldiers ("Cheerleading"). This is immersion breaking, because a single soldier ends up with 8 [[Combat#aps|AP]] or more (where is that time coming from?), and somewhat OP, in that you can channel [[Combat#aps|AP]] towards an Uber soldier that can optimize their utility.
  
<code>Disabling a body part also remove that body part's armor (passive skill)</code>
+
===Suggested change===
  
 +
<code>Refunds 2[[Combat#aps|AP]] to another operative within 10 tiles, can only be used once per turn by the same <u><b>and on the same</u></b> soldier (cost 4[[character Development#wps|WP]] and 2[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
  
==<span id = "mark for death></span>[[file:mark_for_death.png|40px|link=|Mark for Death]] Mark for Death==
+
Alternative:  
  
<code>Increases damage suffered by the target by 10 from each hit until the end of the turn (4[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
+
<code>Refunds 2[[Combat#aps|AP]] to another operative within 10 tiles, can only be used once per turn <s>by the same</s> <u><b>on the same</u></b> soldier (cost 4[[character Development#wps|WP]] and 2[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
  
=[[file:Berserker_training.png|60px|link=Berserker]] [[Berserker]]=
+
<i>Reasoning: no reason to stop an operative from casting the skill twice, if each time it is cast on a different soldier</i>
  
General comment: There seems to be close to universal agreement that Berserker's skillset is uniquely unsuited for its nominal role of melee fighter (see [[classes and Skills#Berserker|here]] in my description of the class my personal view on why this is the case)
+
==<span id="vanish"></span>[[File:Vanish.png|40px|link=]]Vanish==
 +
<code>Move within 5 tiles and disappear from view until the end of turn or is revealed by contact with [[geoscape#Mist|mist]] (4[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
  
 +
===Issues===
  
==<span id="armor break" ></span>[[file:armor_break.png|40px|link=|Armor Break]] Armor Break==
+
Allows free movement equivalent to 1 [[Combat#aps|AP]] with 20 Speed and makes achieving stealth trivial. As stealth is the prerequisite for [[File:Sneak attack.png|30px|link=#Sneak Attack]] [[#Sneak Attack]], it also makes the condition for that skill trivial.
  
<code>Next attack will shred an additional 30 armor (4[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
+
===Suggested change===
  
 +
<code>Move within 5 tiles and disappear from view until the end of turn or is revealed by contact with [[geoscape#Mist|mist]] (4[[character Development#wps|WP]] <b><u>1[[Combat#aps|AP]]</b></u>)</code> 
  
==<span id="close quarters evade"></span>[[file:close_quarters_evade.png|40px|link=|Close Quarters Evade]] Close Quarters Evade==
+
<i>Reasoning: adds a real cost to the skill; as it already allows movement for 1 [[Combat#aps|AP]], cost is reasonable</i>
  
<code> Attacks from enemies within 10 tiles deal 25% less damage (passive skill)</code>  
+
==<span id="brawler"></span>[[file:brawler.png|40px|link=|Brawler]] Brawler==
  
 
+
<code>[[combat#Melee|Bash and melee attacks]] deal 50% more damage (passive skill)</code>
 
 
==<span id="bloodlust"></span>[[file:Bloodlust.png|40px|link=|Bloodlust]] Bloodlust==
 
 
 
<code>[[combat#Standard Damage|Damage]] and [[Character Development#movement|movement]] are increased proportionally to the health lost (up to double) (passive)</code>
 
  
 
===Issues===
 
===Issues===
  
There are several problems with this skill, directly connected to the general problem with the class as a whole, in that its skillset is inadequate for its enunciated role (melee fighter).  
+
This skill is not useful to [[file:Heavy_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Heavy|Heavy]] [[classes and Skills#Heavy|Heavy]] outside of meta builds, either 'basher' (more on that below) or meta multi-class melee builds where this skill is used to buff melee damage (for example, [[file:assault_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#assault|Assault]] /[[file:Heavy_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Heavy|Heavy]], or [[File:infiltrator_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#infiltrator|Infiltrator]] /[[file:Heavy_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Heavy|Heavy]], either of them in combination with [[file:Vengeance torso25.jpg|x30px|link=#Vengeance Torso]] [[#Vengeance Torso]]).
  
There is general agreement that there are problems with the way the skill is triggered and the speed and damage buffs obtained:
+
Bashing can deal too much damage when compared to melee (see [[#Bash and melee]]), which is unintuitive, as a proficient and dedicated melee strike should deal more damage than a bash, and when compared to the [[Combat#dps|DPS]] of [[heavy weapons]] (more often than not clubbing with [[heavy weapons]] is preferable to shooting with them), and the drawback for bashing - damage to the weapon - is insufficient to compensate for the much higher [[Combat#dps|DPS]].
  
# The only way to control the amount of HP lost is through friendly fire/not healing the Berserker between missions; this makes the skill less useful unless you attack your own operative, which some players are reluctant to do and is immersion breaking (how can the soldier remain under the effects of Bloodlust for an injury suffered a month ago?)
+
Some of us think that this is because damage to the weapon is not sufficient (25% of damage dealt - 20, for armor of the weapon); as weapons get repaired for free after the mission this drawback would only be effective if there was substantial risk that the weapon would be destroyed. Some of us think that damage to the weapon is not enough of a drawback, as it can be avoided by carrying many weapons.  
# The game ordinarily doesn't favor having an operative with low HP: it's too risky, as there are no bleed out mechanics. Some of us feel that if the skill is used for melee it's a sure way of getting the Berserker killed.  
 
  
There is also general agreement that speed and damage buff can be abused in the context of a meta build, particularly using other skills that further increase damage (Sneak Attack, Brawler) or Speed (Frenzy), and those that allow recovering AP (Rapid Clearance and Onslaught), as well as skills that reduce AP cost of attacks (Adrenaline Rush, Boom Blast and Quick Aim).
+
Summing up, this is another skill (like [[file:Bloodlust.png|30px|link=#Bloodlust]] [[#Bloodlust]] and [[file:Adrenaline_rush.png|30px|link=#Adrenaline Rush|Adrenaline Rush]] [[#Adrenaline Rush]]) that is <b>not useful</b> for the class when played outside of meta <b>and too useful</b> as a meta ingredient.
 
 
The general feeling is that this skill is not very useful unless employed as an ingredient in a meta-build, in which case it is very much OP.
 
  
 
===Suggested change===
 
===Suggested change===
  
A variety of very diverse changes may be suggested, but the general consensus is that a serious discussion has to be preceded by a clear indication whether the Berserker class and/or this skill in particular can be geared specifically towards a melee role, or whether it has to stay as it is now; an abstraction that could be potentially useful for any class/build.
+
Some of us feel that the skill should be removed and replaced with something else. It doesn't really fit the sandbox approach where all skills are useful to all classes, since it's only useful for melee. It's also singularly uninteresting, being a straight, unconditional buff to damage. Some of us think that it should be at least moved to [[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]] [[classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]], as it would fit its nominal role.
  
==<span id="ignore pain"></span>[[file:ignore_pain.png|40px|link=|Ignore Pain]] Ignore pain==
+
Just a suggestion for a heavy-oriented skill, 'Anchor':
  
<code>Disabled body parts remain functional. Cannot Panic or be Mind Controlled (passive)</code>  
+
<code>Enter stance that gives +50% accuracy with [[heavy weapons]], cannot move or use any skill, need 1 [[Combat#aps|AP]] to get out of the stance. Requires wearing heavy armor</code>
  
 
+
==<span id="war cry"> </span>[[file:war_cry.png|40px|link=|War Cry]] War Cry==
 
+
<code>Limits the [[Combat#aps|AP]] of all enemies within 10 tiles to 2 (3[[character Development#wps|WP]] 1[[Combat#aps|AP]]) </code>
==<span id="adrenaline rush" ></span>[[file:Adrenaline_rush.png|40px|link=|Adrenaline Rush]] Adrenaline Rush==  
 
 
 
<code> All abilities cost 1 [[Combat#aps|AP]] until the end of the turn, can't use any [[#skill|skills]] or [[Combat#abilities|abilities]] that cost [[character Development#wps|WP]] after casting it, [[Combat#Accuracy|Accuracy]] reduced by 50% and you are [[file:dazed.png|30px|link=status effects#DAZED|Dazed]] [[status effects#DAZED|dazed]] the next turn (5[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
 
  
 
===Issues===
 
===Issues===
  
The real utility of this skill lies in using 3 AP weapons, which 1) the Berserker is not proficient in, and 2) do not fit the class nor the skill thematically, all but forcing the player into using Berserker as a meta class. This is the first problem: that the skill is not useful to its class outside of a meta build; there is no reason to use it for melee attacks (Vengeance Torso is a much better option in every regard) or with the Nergal hand cannon (an unpopular weapon, that even at double DPS isn't impressive, especially for a capstone ability).  
+
#the number of enemies that are afflicted by a single casting, or, put another way, that 360°, 10 tiles, no [[Combat#los|LoS]] is too generous and makes the game too easy, as some enemies only have 3 [[Combat#aps|AP]] ranged or 2 [[Combat#aps|AP]] melee attacks which they can't use, and enemies AI often is unable to handle the War Cry status, wasting their remaining [[Combat#aps|AP]]
 +
#it's immersion breaking, especially for large Pandorans, particularly [[file:Scylla icon.png|30px|link=Scyllas|Scylla]] [[Scyllas|Scylla]], and that it works through any wall or obstacle.
  
The second problem is that the skill is too effective in meta builds (with Bloodlust + Rapid Clearance/Sneak Attack + Deceptor/Sniper Rifle/Grenade Launcher): even when the meta-Berserker is unable to clear entire maps on its own, it can deal too much damage, trivializing the challenge. 
+
===Suggested change===
  
The third problem is that the malus piled on the skill (50% accuracy malus, dazed next turn and can't use WP abilities) in reality further pigeonholes the Berserker into contrived meta builds and prevents certain natural synergies (like Stomp, Tentacle Attack and all Priest active abilities), while the dazed next turn malus simply forces the player into giving all Berserkers the Armored Head mutation. 
+
<code>Limits the [[Combat#aps|AP]] of all enemies within <b><u>[[Combat#los|Line of Sight]] in a cone</b></u><s>10 tiles</s> to 2 (3[[character Development#wps|WP]] 1[[Combat#aps|AP]]) </code>
  
===Suggested change===
+
The cone to be of 60° and between 5-8 tiles high
  
<code>All abilities until the end of the turn cost -1 [[Combat#aps|AP]] to a minimum of 1 [[Combat#aps|AP]], but cannot gain any [[character Development#wps|WP]]. Does not work with Quick Aim, Boom Blast or Rage Burst (5[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
+
<i>Reasoning: limits the number of enemies that can be afflicted with a single casting</i>
  
<i>Reasoning: makes the skill useful for Berserker's nominal role, while allowing a much wider range of interesting synergies for multiclass builds (for example, a Heavy/Berserker that can Jet Jump, melee strike and Stomp on the same turn. Clear and easy to understand</i>
+
To address the immersion breaking aspect of the skill, it could be renamed suppression and tied to a special attack with the main weapon that always costs 1 [[Combat#aps|AP]], would be extremely inaccurate/low damage, but would grant the - 2 [[Combat#aps|AP]] penalty to any characters caught in the cone.
  
Alternative:
+
Also, immunity/resistance to the effects of the skill for [[file:Scylla icon.png|30px|link=Scyllas|Scylla]] [[Scyllas|Scylla]] and perhaps [[file:Siren icon.png|30px|link=Sirens]] [[Sirens]] and [[file:Chiron icon.png|30px|link=Chirons]] [[Chirons]] could be added.
  
<code>After taking a shot with proficient weapon move up to 3 tiles and attack with melee strike or bash for free (5[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
+
==[[File:Ready_for_action.png|40px|link=]]<span id="ready for action"></span>Ready for Action==
 +
<code>Reloading and inventory management costs 0 [[Combat#aps|AP]] (passive skill)</code>
  
=[[File:infiltrator_training.png|60px|link=Infiltrator]][[Infiltrator]]=
+
===Issues===
  
- [[combat#proficiency|Proficient]] with crossbows and spider drones (see complete list [[infiltrator weapons|here]])
+
Some of us find it immersion breaking that  this skill can be used to allow operatives closely packed together to share a single weapon and to reload it for free. Some of us don't see an issue with this.
  
- Gain +25% to [[Character Development#stealth|stealth]] while undetected
+
For those who do see a problem, the issue is that all manipulation of inventory, whether giving or receiving items is done at 0 [[Combat#aps|AP]] cost. This is what creates a situation where the operative can get a weapon from soldier A, reload it, give it to solder B, who will fire it, then the operative will take it, reload it, and pass it on to soldier C, without anybody using up any time (or paying [[Combat#aps|AP]]) for equipment sharing.
  
 +
===Suggested change===
  
 +
<code>Reloading and inventory management <u><b>of the operative</u></b> costs 0 [[Combat#aps|AP]] (passive skill)</code>
  
==[[File:Surprise attack.png|40px|link=|Surprise Attack]] <span id="surprise attack"> </span>Surprise Attack==
+
Alternative:
  
<code>Attacks from behind gain [[Damage types#Shock Damage|shock damage]] equal to 3 times the [[Combat#Damage|damage]] dealt (passive)</code>  
+
<code>Reloading <s>and</s><b><u>,</b></u> inventory management <u><b>of the operative and giving items to other characters</u></b>  costs 0 [[Combat#aps|AP]] (passive skill)</code>
  
 +
=Other=
  
 +
==<span id="Vengeance Torso"></span>[[file:Vengeance torso25.jpg|x40px|link=#Vengeance Torso]] Vengeance Torso==
  
==[[File:Deploy decoy.png|40px|link=|Deploy Decoy]] <span id="deploy decoy"></span>Deploy Decoy==  
+
===Issues===
<code>Deploy holographic decoy at the chosen location. The decoy is treated as a real target by all enemies (4[[character Development#wps|WP]] 1[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
 
  
==[[File:Spider drone pack.png|40px|link=|Spider Drone Pack]] <span id="spider drone pack"></span> Spider Drone Pack==  
+
#There is general agreement that the synergy between [[file:Vengeance torso25.jpg|x30px|link=#Vengeance Torso]] [[#Vengeance Torso]] and current [[file:RapidC.png|30px|link=#Rapid Clearance]] [[#Rapid Clearance]] is too good, as with sufficient buffs you can one-hit kill an enemy, recoup 2 [[Combat#aps|AP]], use one for movement and another for the one-hit kill, etc.
<code>Deploy 3 [[infiltrator weapons|spider drones]] with one action (2[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
+
#There is general agreement that [[file:Vengeance torso25.jpg|x30px|link=#Vengeance Torso]] [[#Vengeance Torso]] is the optimal melee option, making any melee build without it highly inefficient by comparison. This is also lore / immersion breaking in that [[file:Synedrion.png|30px|link=Synedrion]] [[Synedrion]] does not have any melee weapons, and has to use [[file:anu.png|30px|link=Disciples of Anu]] [[Disciples of Anu]] weapons, while [[file:anu.png|30px|link=Disciples of Anu]] [[Disciples of Anu]] and its [[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]] [[classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserkers]] are particularly unsuited for melee even as a cross-class build. This is because viable melee builds are
 +
##[[file:Heavy_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Heavy|Heavy]]  / [[File:infiltrator_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#infiltrator|Infiltrator]]  to maximize damage taking advantage of [[file:Brawler.png|30px|link=#Brawler]] [[#Brawler]]
 +
##[[file:assault_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#assault|Assault]]/ [[File:infiltrator_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#infiltrator|Infiltrator]]  to take advantage of [[file:dash.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#dash|Dash]] [[classes and Skills#dash|Dash]] and [[file:RapidC.png|30px|link=#Rapid Clearance]] [[#Rapid Clearance]], with [[File:Sneak attack.png|30px|link=#Sneak Attack]] [[#Sneak Attack]]
 +
## [[file:assault_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#assault|Assault]]/ [[file:Heavy_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Heavy|Heavy]] to take advantage of Dash and [[file:RapidC.png|30px|link=#Rapid Clearance]] [[#Rapid Clearance]], with [[file:Brawler.png|30px|link=#Brawler]] [[#Brawler]]
  
 +
By contrast, all that [[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]] [[classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]] can offer is the speed buff from [[file:Bloodlust.png|30px|link=#Bloodlust]] [[#Bloodlust]] (the damage buff from [[file:Brawler.png|30px|link=#Brawler]] [[#Brawler]] being preferable in all other cases), and that only in a contrived meta-build to take advantage of [[classes and Skills#extreme mobility|extreme mobility]]. Particularly, there is no sense in using [[file:Adrenaline_rush.png|30px|link=#Adrenaline Rush|Adrenaline Rush]] [[#Adrenaline Rush]] for melee when one can have [[file:Vengeance torso25.jpg|x30px|link=#Vengeance Torso]] [[#Vengeance Torso]].
  
 +
The problem at heart is that this a piece of equipment that gives an [[Combat#aps|AP]] discount on an attack type, thus making it the to-go option for any build that is to specialize in that attack type.
  
==<span id="vanish"></span>[[File:Vanish.png|40px|link=]]Vanish==
+
===Suggested Change===
<code>Move within 5 tiles and disappear from view until the end of turn or is revealed by contact with [[geoscape#Mist|mist]] (4[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
 
  
==<span id="sneak attack"></span>[[File:Sneak attack.png|40px|link=|Sneak Attack]]Sneak Attack==
+
<code>Defense Matrix: After a melee attack on an enemy, [[file:Vanish.png|30px|link=#Vanish]] [[#Vanish]] for free</code>
<code>Damage dealt while not spotted is increased by 100% (passive)</code>
 
  
From Belial
+
<i>Reasoning: removes the 1 AP attack, replaces with something that fits the Shinobi theme, similar to Templar's Momentum in WOTC. Possible uses: attack an enemy from behind to stun them and gain [[file:Vanish.png|30px|link=#Vanish]] [[#Vanish]], then attack a different enemy benefiting from [[File:Sneak attack.png|30px|link=#Sneak Attack]] [[#Sneak Attack]]. Synedrion could eventually get a lower damage 1[[Combat#aps|AP]] weapon to fit this playstyle</i>
  
Issues:
+
==Bash and melee==
Allows to effectively double units damage output
 
  
1. It is very easy to achieve high stealth levels.
+
===Issues===
2. Vanish skills allow to achieve stealth for 4WP making it effectively activated cheap EoT damage amplifier
 
3. Stacks with other +% dmg sources like Brawler, Bloodlust, Marked for death etc.
 
4. Can be further exploited by AP regeneration like Rapid Clearance, Onslaught etc or AP discount skills, further amplifying damage output.
 
  
Suggested change:  
+
Bash and melee can deal too much damage when compared to other attack types, <b>see [[combat#Bash and Melee weapons|Damage Map]]</b>, or the comparison below:
  
<code>Damage dealt while not spotted is increased by 100% <u><b>for the first attack of the turn</u></b> (passive)</code>
+
{|class=wikitable
 +
|
 +
! Bash (30 STR, using heavy weapon)
 +
! Bash (35 STR, using heavy weapon)
 +
! Melee (Marduk's Fist)
 +
! Melee (Marduk's Fist + Vengeance Torso)
 +
! Deceptor
 +
|-
 +
| Base damage per AP
 +
| 150
 +
| 175
 +
| 80
 +
| 160
 +
| 140
 +
|-
 +
| +50% from [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] [[#brawler|brawler]]
 +
| 225
 +
| 263
 +
| 120
 +
| 240
 +
| -
 +
|-
 +
| +20% from [[file:close_quarters_specialist.png|30px|link=personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]] [[personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]]
 +
| 195
 +
| 210
 +
| 104
 +
| 208
 +
| -
 +
|- style="background: grey"|
 +
| [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] + [[file:close_quarters_specialist.png|30px|link=personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]]
 +
| 255
 +
| 298
 +
| 136
 +
| 272
 +
| -
 +
|-
 +
| +50% from [[file:bloodlust.png|30px|link=#bloodlust|Bloodlust]] [[#bloodlust|bloodlust]]
 +
| 225
 +
| 263
 +
| 120
 +
| 240
 +
| 210
 +
|- style="background: grey"|
 +
| [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] + [[file:close_quarters_specialist.png|30px|link=personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]] + [[file:bloodlust.png|30px|link=#bloodlust|Bloodlust]]
 +
| 330
 +
| 385
 +
| 176
 +
| 352
 +
| 210
 +
|-
 +
| +10% from [[file:reckless.png|30px|link=personal_perks#reckless]] [[personal perks|reckless]]
 +
| 165
 +
| 193
 +
| 88
 +
| 176
 +
| 154
 +
|- style="background: grey"|
 +
| [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] + [[file:close_quarters_specialist.png|30px|link=personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]] + [[file:bloodlust.png|30px|link=#bloodlust|Bloodlust]]+ [[file:reckless.png|30px|link=personal_perks#reckless]]
 +
| 345
 +
| 403
 +
| 184
 +
| 368
 +
| 224
 +
|-
 +
| +10% from [[Phoenix Project research#Vivisection|vivisection research]]
 +
| 165
 +
| 193
 +
| 88
 +
| 176
 +
| 154
 +
|- style="background: grey"|
 +
| [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] + [[file:close_quarters_specialist.png|30px|link=personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]] + [[file:bloodlust.png|30px|link=#bloodlust|Bloodlust]]+ [[file:reckless.png|30px|link=personal_perks#reckless]] + [[Phoenix Project research#Vivisection|vivisection research]]
 +
| 380
 +
| 443
 +
| 203
 +
| 405
 +
| 246
 +
|-
 +
| +10% from [[Synedrion Research#Moon Data analysis (1000)|Moon Data analysis]]
 +
| 165
 +
| 193
 +
| 88
 +
| 176
 +
| 154
 +
|- style="background: grey"|
 +
| [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] + [[file:close_quarters_specialist.png|30px|link=personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]] + [[file:bloodlust.png|30px|link=#bloodlust|Bloodlust]]+ [[file:reckless.png|30px|link=personal_perks#reckless]] + [[Phoenix Project research#Vivisection|vivisection research]] + [[Synedrion Research#Moon Data analysis (1000)|Moon Data analysis]]
 +
| 414
 +
| 484
 +
| 221
 +
| 442
 +
| 269
 +
|-
 +
| +10 damage per attack from [[file:mark_for_death.png|30px|link=#mark for death|Mark for Death]] [[#mark for death|mark for death]]
 +
| 160
 +
| 185
 +
| 85
 +
| 170
 +
| 260
 +
|- style="background: grey"|
 +
| [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] + [[file:close_quarters_specialist.png|30px|link=personal_perks#close quarters specialist|Close Quarters Specialist]] + [[file:bloodlust.png|30px|link=#bloodlust|Bloodlust]]+ [[file:reckless.png|30px|link=personal_perks#reckless]] + [[Phoenix Project research#Vivisection|vivisection research]] + [[Synedrion Research#Moon Data analysis (1000)|Moon Data analysis]] +[[file:mark_for_death.png|30px|link=#mark for death|Mark for Death]]
 +
| 428
 +
| 494
 +
| 231
 +
| 452
 +
| 389
 +
|-
 +
|}
  
Alternative suggestion:  
+
*Melee can benefit from [[file:sneak_attack.png|30px|link=#sneak attack|Sneak Attack]] [[#sneak attack|sneak attack]], but not so bash, which means that melee can get can additional +50% ([[file:sneak_attack.png|30px|link=#sneak attack|Sneak Attack]] has to replace either [[file:brawler.png|30px|link=#brawler]] or [[file:bloodlust.png|30px|link=#bloodlust|Bloodlust]])
  
<code><b><u>Next attack the</u></b> damage dealt <s>while</s><b><u>if</u></b> not spotted is increased by <s>100% (passive)</s> <b><u>50%(4WP). Cannot be used with Quick Aim, Boom Blast or Rage Burst</u></b></code>
+
*With [[Legacy of the Ancients]] [[file:1scyther.png|30px|link=Berserker weapons#scyther|Scyther]] [[Berserker weapons#scyther|Scyther]] the damage that can be dealt with 1 AP (using Vengeance Torso) goes up to 1018
  
<i>Reasoning: the problems with this skill are twofold; it allows to do too much damage as it can be repeatedly combined with other skills that increase damage output, making the game too easy, and it's not tactical; there are no meaningful choices regarding the use of the skill, as damage from all attacks is doubled provided a trivial condition is met. The first suggestion seeks to address these problems by limiting the bonus to a single attack per turn, and as it's also the first attack, some tactics would be required to make the best use of the skill. With the second suggestion a Sniper / Infiltrator or Heavy / Infiltrator has to choose between damage buff or more attacks per turn.</i>
+
===Suggested change===
  
=<span id="technician"></span>[[file:Technician_training.png|60px|link=Technician]] [[Technician]]=
+
See [[file:Brawler.png|30px|link=#Brawler]] [[#Brawler]] and [[file:Vengeance torso25.jpg|x30px|link=#Vengeance Torso]] [[#Vengeance Torso]]:
  
- [[combat#proficiency|Proficient]] with PDWs, Auto Turrets and Exo-Arms (see complete list [[technician weapons|here]])
+
#[[file:Brawler.png|30px|link=#Brawler]] [[#Brawler]] could be replaced with something more useful for [[file:Heavy_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Heavy|Heavy]] [[classes and Skills#Heavy|Heavy]]
 +
#Bash should do more damage to weapon
 +
#Bash should do less damage than dedicated melee
 +
#[[file:Vengeance torso25.jpg|x30px|link=#Vengeance Torso]] [[#Vengeance Torso]] should not reduce [[Combat#aps|AP]] cost of melee attack.
  
==[[File:Fast use.png|40px|link=]] <span id="fast use"></span>Fast Use==
+
==Advanced Lasers==
<code>The action point cost of medkits, stimpacks and robotic arm abilities is reduced by 1(passive)</code>
 
  
==[[File:Manual control.png|40px|link=]] <span id="manual control"></span>Manual Control==
+
[[File:1gorgon.png|30px|link=technician weapons#gorgon|Gorgon Eye-A]] [[technician weapons#gorgon|Gorgon Eye-A]], [[file:1scorcher.png|30px|link=technician weapons#scorcher|Scorcher]] [[technician weapons#scorcher|Scorcher]] and <span id="Destiny III"></span> <b><u>[[File:1destiny3.png|30px|link=heavy weapons#destiny|Destiny III]] [[heavy weapons#destiny|Destiny III]] </b></u>
<code>Take manual control of a turret or vehicle weapon and shoot at a target (3[[character Development#wps|WP]] 1[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>  
 
  
 
===Issues===
 
===Issues===
  
Using manual control on turrets is a very cheap and reliable way of dealing massive damage, making the game too easy.
+
#[[Phoenix Project research#Advanced Laser Technology (1200)|Advanced Laser Technology]] only requires basic [[file:Synedrion.png|30px|link=Synedrion]] [[Synedrion]] and [[file:NJ.png|30px|link=New Jericho]] [[New Jericho]] [[geoscape#Research|Research]]. As reaching [[geoscape#aligned|aligned diplomacy status]] with both factions is very easy for experienced players, usually they get them before obtaining the inferior piercing technology variants of these weapons ([[New Jericho Research#Advanced Technician Weapons (800)|Advanced Technician Weapons]]) and often at the same time as they gain access to basic variants.
 
+
#All [[Technician weapons|Turrets]] are OP:
There is some discussion as to whether this is due <b>primarily</b> to
+
## they deal very high damage and are very accurate; they are an extra soldier that you carry around in your backpack
 
+
## make for small targets and are well protected, so difficult to destroy for most enemies; compared to their firepower it naturally creates a certain imbalance (very damaging, highly protected unit that can be added to the battlefield anytime)
# Amount of damage that turrets deal and that they have too much ammo
+
## AI handles [[Technician weapons|Turrets]] (and [[infiltrator weapons#arachni|Drones]]) very badly, acting like extreme version of [[file:deploy decoy.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#deploy decoy|Deploy Decoy]] [[classes and Skills#deploy decoy|Deploy Decoy]], except it shoots and hard to kill; as such [[Technician weapons|Turrets]] can draw a lot of enemy fire and take a lot of it, and they have [[file:return fire.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Return Fire|Return Fire]] [[classes and Skills#Return Fire|Return Fire]] too (see [[#Certain AI behaviors]])  
# The Technician being able to cast manual control an unlimited number of times, only limited by AP (which can be refunded via Onslaught)  
+
## Can be abused to extreme degrees with [[file:Manual control.png|30px|link=#Manual Control]] [[#Manual Control]]
# That each device can be activated an unlimited number of times
+
#[[File:1gorgon.png|40px|link=technician weapons#gorgon|Gorgon Eye-A]] [[technician weapons#gorgon|Gorgon Eye-A]] has too high [[Combat#dps|DPS]] for an accuracy comparable to that of an [[assault weapons|assault rifle]].
 
+
#[[File:1destiny3.png|40px|link=heavy weapons#destiny|Destiny III]] [[heavy weapons#destiny|Destiny III]] is too accurate for the damage it can do.
However, there is a general agreement that to some extent all of these elements contribute to the above-stated issue.  
 
 
 
In addition, some players feel that this is also immersion breaking because it unexpectedly stretches out time - why is the device capable of taking an unlimited number of actions if under 'manual control'?
 
  
 
===Suggested change===
 
===Suggested change===
  
Reduce damage and ammo capacity of all turrets  
+
#Require [[New Jericho Research#Advanced Technician Weapons (800)|Advanced Technician Weapons research]] in addition to [[file:Synedrion.png|30px|link=Synedrion]] [[Synedrion Research#Laser Weapons (200)|Laser Weapons technology]] as a prerequisite for [[Phoenix Project research#Advanced Laser Technology (1200)|Advanced Laser Technology]].
 +
#Reduce damage of [[File:1destiny3.png|40px|link=heavy weapons#destiny|Destiny III]] [[heavy weapons#destiny|Destiny III]] to 60-70 per shot, reduce ammo to 9-18, increase cost of ammo. Lack of [[Combat#proficiency|proficiency]] should have an impact in use - either chance to [[Combat#fumble|fumble]] or reduce burst to 2 from 3.
 +
#Reduce damage (burst and damage per shot; or perhaps give all [[Technician weapons|Turrets]] a burst of 8 and reduce damage) of all turrets, ammo (3 shots per mag? To make reloading during a mission something necessary), make AI ignore them, and break if stepped on.
 +
#Reduce damage of [[File:1gorgon.png|40px|link=technician weapons#gorgon|Gorgon Eye-A]] [[technician weapons#gorgon|Gorgon Eye-A]] to 35 (making it a 12.5% increase, vs current 25% vs lower tier [[Technician weapons|Personal Defense Weapons]])
  
<code>Take manual control of a turret or vehicle weapon and shoot at a target, <u><b>limited to one use per turn per device</u></b> (3[[character Development#wps|WP]] 1[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
+
==[[file:Biochemist.png|30px|link=personal perks#biochemist|Biochemist]] [[personal perks#biochemist|Biochemist]]==
  
<i>Reasoning: prevents a device from being activated more than once, more respectful with the integrity of the time-space continuum</i>
+
<code>All attacks that damage a target also inflict 1 [[file:virused.png|30px|link=damage types#Virus Damage|Virus Damage]] [[damage types#Virus Damage|virus damage]] (per bullet)</code>
  
Alternative:
+
===Issues===
  
<code>Take manual control of a turret or vehicle weapon and shoot at a target, <u><b>limited to 2 uses per turn</u></b> (3[[character Development#wps|WP]] 1[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
+
#Lore and immersion breaking: how does something like this even work and how can operatives have this power?
 +
#Absurdly OP with long burst weapons, particularly using [[file:rage_burst.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#rage burst|Rage Burst]] [[classes and Skills#rage burst|Rage Burst]], while very ineffective with single shot weapons.
  
<i>Reasoning: prevents a Technician from spamming the skill, easy to understand</i>
+
===Suggested change===
  
==[[File:Field medic.png|40px|link=]] <span id="field medic"></span>Field Medic==
+
<code>Gain [[Priest weapons|viral weapons]] [[combat#proficiency|proficiency]] with +20% [[combat#Standard Damage|damage]] and [[character Development#accuracy|accuracy]]</code>
<code>Restore 10 hit points and 10 armor to all body parts of the selected target. Disabled body parts are restored (2[[character Development#wps|WP]] 2[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>  
 
  
==[[File:Remote deployment.png|40px|link=]]<span id="remote deployment"></span>Remote deployment==  
+
<i>Reasoning: although this is faction technology and there are only 2 variants, it is quite common to have a bunch of [[File:1redeemer.png|30px|link=Priest weapons|Redeemer]] [[Priest weapons|Redeemers]] dropped by [[file:Triton icon.png|30px|link=Tritons]] [[Tritons]] and [[file:Priest training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Priest|Priest]] [[classes and Skills#Priest|Priests]], so even players who don't align with [[file:anu.png|30px|link=Disciples of Anu]] [[Disciples of Anu]] could make use of them. The weapons are low damage and can take a 20% buff</i>
<code>Turrets can be thrown in a radius of 10(?) tiles and deployed for 1 [[combat#aps|AP]] (passive)</code>  
 
  
==[[File:Electric reinforcement.png|40px|link=]]<span id="electric reinforcement"></span>Electric reinforcement==
+
==[[file:frenzied.png|30px|link=|Frenzy]] Frenzy==
<code>Give yourself and allies within 20 tiles a bonus of 20 armor for 1 turn. This effect does not stack (6[[character Development#wps|WP]] 1[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
 
  
=[[file:Priest_training.png|60px|link=priest|Priest]] [[Priest]]=
+
<code>Instil [[file:frenzied.png|30px|link=status effects#FRENZIED|Frenzy]] [[status effects#FRENZIED|frenzy]] in friendly characters within 20 tiles for 2 turns, increasing their [[Character Development#movement|movement]] by 50% and making them immune to [[Combat#panic|panic]] (1[[combat#aps|AP]], 4[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
  
- [[combat#proficiency|Proficient]] with weapons that deal [[file:virused.png|30px|link=damage types#Virus Damage|Virus Damage]] [[damage types#Virus Damage|virus damage]] (that is, [[file:1redeemer.png|30px|link=priest weapons|Redeemer]] [[Priest weapons|Redeemer]] and [[file:1subjugator.png|30px|link=priest weapons|Subjugator]] [[Priest weapons|Subjugator]]) 
+
===Issues===
  
- Can use special [[Mutations#heads|head mutations]], which give them [[#additional abilities|additional abilities]]
+
There is general agreement that
  
==<span id="additional abilities"></span>Additional [[file:Priest_training.png|30px|link=priest]] abilities acquired from [[mutations#head|head mutations]]==
+
#the speed buff scales too well with speed of both player and AI characters, making already fast characters too fast. This can make the game too easy (as [[classes and Skills#extreme mobility|extreme mobility]] is one of the main ingredients for a [[classes and Skills#tb|Terminator Build]] ), and sometimes too challenging (some Pandorans are already very fast, and [[file:frenzied.png|30px|link=#Frenzy]] [[#Frenzy]] allows them to unexpectedly traverse the length of the map). Some of us also consider that this is immersion breaking, as even more than "super-hero" it just looks "glitchy" (see [[file:assault_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#assault|Assault]]/[[file:Berserker_training.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Berserker|Berserker]] kitted out for speed with [[File:Agile legsnew.png|x30px|link=mutations#agile|Agile Legs]] + [[File:1aksu body armor.png|50px|link=body Armor#aksu|Aksu Body Armor]] + [[file:Quarterback.png|30px|link=personal perks#quarterback|Quarterback]] and [[File:thief.png|30px|link=personal perks|Thief]] + [[file:Bloodlust.png|30px|link=#Bloodlust]]  + [[file:frenzied.png|30px|link=#Frenzy]] [[#Frenzy]] casting [[file:dash.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#dash|Dash]]).
 +
#it makes the other [[Mutations#head|head mutations]] much less interesting options by comparison
  
A particularity of [[file:Priest_training.png|30px|link=|Priest]] is that they have access to a unique set of [[Mutations#heads|head mutations]], each of them adding another [[Combat#abilities|ability]] (or 'spell') to their repertoire:
+
===Suggested change===
  
#<span id="priest frenzy"></span>[[file:judgement head.jpg|x30px|link=mutations#judgement|Judgement Head]] [[mutations#judgement|Judgement Head]]: <code>Instil [[file:frenzied.png|30px|link=status effects#FRENZIED|Frenzy]] [[status effects#FRENZIED|frenzy]] in friendly characters within 20 tiles for 2 turns, increasing their [[Character Development#movement|movement]] by 50% and making them immune to [[Combat#panic|panic]] (1[[combat#aps|AP]], 4[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>  
+
<code>Instil [[file:frenzied.png|30px|link=status effects#FRENZIED|Frenzy]] [[status effects#FRENZIED|frenzy]] in friendly characters within 20 tiles for 2 turns, increasing their [[Character Development#movement|movement]] by <u><b> <s>50%</s></u></b> <u><b>6</u></b> and making them immune to [[Combat#panic|panic]] (1[[combat#aps|AP]], 4[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
  
Suggested change:
+
<i>Reasoning: making [[file:frenzied.png|30px|link=#Frenzy]] [[#Frenzy]] a flat bonus would still make the ability very strong, adding the equivalent of a little more than 1 [[Combat#aps|AP]] of movement with max speed to all friendlies, but it would benefit the low speed characters relatively more than the already fast ones</i>
  
<code>Instil [[file:frenzied.png|30px|link=status effects#FRENZIED|Frenzy]] [[status effects#FRENZIED|frenzy]] in friendly characters within 20 tiles for 2 turns, increasing their [[Character Development#movement|movement]] by <u><b> <s>50%</s></u></b> <u><b>5</u></b> and making them immune to [[Combat#panic|panic]] (1[[combat#aps|AP]], 4[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
+
==Certain AI behaviors==
  
#<span id="priest scream"></span>[[file:Screaming head.jpg|x30px|link=mutations#screaming|Screaming Head]] [[mutations#screaming|Screaming Head]]: <code>Cast [[file:Psychic scream.png|30px|link=|Psychic Scream]] psychic scream, reducing [[character Development#wps|WP]] of all enemy units in an 8 tile radius by NTC (3[[combat#aps|AP]], 4[[character Development#wps|WP]])</code>
+
Note: This refers to some very specific AI behaviors, rather than general improvement of AI
#[[file:synod head.jpg|x30px|link=mutations#synod|Synod Head]] [[mutations#synod|Synod Head]]: <code>Living allied units within 7 tiles recover 2 [[character Development#wps|WP]] at the start of the turn (passive skill)</code>
 
  
==[[File:mind_control.png|40px|link=|Mind Control]] <span id="mind control"></span>Mind Control==  
+
===Issues===
  
<code>Gain control of an enemy in range and with line of sight ([[character Development#wps|WP]] cost equal to enemy's current [[character Development#wps|WP]], 1[[Combat#aps|AP]]; costs 1-10 [[character Development#wps|WP]] per turn to maintain, depending on target type)</code>
+
#Fire: enemies run into fire, even when it means outright death or disabled limbs
 +
#[[combat#recover|Recover]]: enemies cast [[combat#recover|Recover]] when with recovered status, missing their chance to act when afflicted by [[file:virused.png|30px|link=Damage types#Virus Damage|Virus Damage]] [[Damage types#Virus Damage|Virus Damage]].
 +
#Healing: human enemies obsessed with healing themselves and friendlies, will even run into fire to heal a friendly.
 +
#[[Technician weapons|Turrets]] and [[infiltrator weapons#arachni|Drones]]: enemies prioritize attacking [[Technician weapons|Turrets]] and [[infiltrator weapons#arachni|Drones]], which are hard to hit (also, [[Technician weapons|Turrets]] have [[file:return fire.png|30px|link=classes and Skills#Return Fire|Return Fire]] [[classes and Skills#Return Fire|Return Fire]])
 +
#[[file:Triton icon.png|30px|link=Tritons]]  [[Tritons]] with [[file:blood_sucking_arm.png|x30px|link=Tritons#blood|Blood Sucking Arms]] [[Tritons#blood|Blood Sucking Arms]]: prioritize healing over killing potential; the [[file:Triton icon.png|30px|link=Tritons|Triton]]  will attack targets with full [[character Development#hps|HP]] instead of killing a weakened operative. This accomplishes very little, as the [[file:Triton icon.png|30px|link=Tritons|Triton]] will be killed next turn.
 +
#Last step out of cover: enemies use last movement point to step out of cover
  
==[[File:induce_panic.png|40px|link=]] <span id="induce_panic"></span>Induce Panic==
+
===Suggested change===
<code>Cause a target to [[combat#panic|panic]] if its current [[character Development#wps|WP]] are less than the [[file:Priest_training.png|30px|link=|Priest]] (3[[character Development#wps|WP]], 1[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
 
 
 
==[[File:minds_sense.png|40px|link=]] <span id="mind sense" ></span>Mind Sense==
 
 
 
<code>All organic enemies within 15 tiles are automatically revealed (passive)</code>
 
 
 
==[[File:psychic_ward.png|40px|link=]] <span id="psychic ward"> </span>Psychic Ward==
 
 
 
<code>Allies within 10 tiles are immune to panic and psychic damage attacks (passive)</code>
 
 
 
==[[File:mind_crush.png|40px|link=|Mind Crush]] <span id="mind crush"></span>Mind Crush==  
 
  
<code>Deal 100 damage to all enemy entities within 10 tiles (6[[character Development#wps|WP]], 1[[Combat#aps|AP]])</code>
+
#Enemies shouldn't run into fire if it's going to disable a limb
 +
#Enemies should use turn with recovered status to act
 +
#Enemies shouldn't heal unless they have less than 50% [[character Development#hps|HP]]
 +
#Ranged enemies should ignore [[infiltrator weapons#arachni|Drones]] and [[Technician weapons|Turrets]]
 +
#[[file:Triton icon.png|30px|link=Tritons]]  [[Tritons]] with [[file:blood_sucking_arm.png|x30px|link=Tritons#blood|Blood Sucking Arms]] [[Tritons#blood|Blood Sucking Arms]] should prioritize attacking enemies with low [[character Development#hps|HP]]
 +
#Don't take the last step 🙂

Latest revision as of 08:09, 6 March 2021

Mentaculus.png
Getting Started
Geoscape
Combat
Character Development
Classes and Skills
Mission Types
Final Mission (Spoiler!)

Introduction and purpose

This document is solely for discussion purposes among players, primarily in the Community Council. This is an attempt at identifying OP skills (and a few other items in the tactical layer), describing why they are OP and presenting suggestions.

Some common themes:

  1. Stacking damage buffs (from the skills Bloodlust.png #Bloodlust, Brawler.png #Brawler and Sneak attack.png #Sneak Attack, the personal perk Reckless Reckless and weapon profiencies perks, the Vivisection and Moon Data Analysis) and mixing them with skills/abilities that reduce AP cost (Adrenaline Rush #Adrenaline Rush, Boom Blast #Boom Blast, Vengeance torso25.jpg #Vengeance Torso, Quick Aim #Quick Aim and Rage Burst Rage Burst) can result in absurdly high DPS. This can be appreciated in the 'damage map' presented here. Absurdly high damage is not fun, because it renders any challenge trivial
  2. Things that are OP as part of a meta-build are often of little use outside of it, not fitting the 'natural' role of the class
  3. Things that are OP are often not 'tactical' because they render mute a choice between different alternatives
  4. Things that are OP are often 'immersion breaking'

Not all the members of the Community Council were involved in the discussions that resulted in this document. Expressions such as "in general", "everybody", "nobody", "some of us", refers to participating members.

The discussions focused on issues, rather than solutions. Some suggestions appear to be generally well-liked, while others are only liked by a few; as a rule, these suggestions should be taken as attempts at solving the issues, rather than as preferred solutions.

This is, of course, not a comprehensive list of everything that could be improved in the tactical layer, but of the most pressing issues that diminish or prevent the enjoyment of the game by the more 'tactically' inclined players (as contrasted with players coming from the 'RPG' end of the playerbase), particularly those with some experience of the game.

If this exercise proves useful, a similar one could be carried for the Geoscape/Strategic layer.

Summary

Skills

  1. #Rapid Clearance
  2. #Manual Control
  3. #Sneak Attack
  4. #Quick Aim
  5. #Boom Blast
  6. #Adrenaline Rush
  7. #Bloodlust
  8. #Onslaught
  9. #Vanish
  10. #Brawler
  11. #War Cry
  12. #Ready for Action

Other

  1. #Vengeance Torso
  2. #Bash and melee
  3. #Advanced Lasers
  4. #Biochemist
  5. #Frenzy
  6. #Certain AI behaviors

Skills

Rapid Clearance Rapid Clearance

Get back 2 AP for each kill until the end of the turn (cost 5WP)

Issues

The skill can be used to gain more AP than those spent on the kill, particularly when combined with skills that reduce the AP cost of attacking (Adrenaline Rush #Adrenaline Rush Quick Aim #Quick Aim Boom Blast #Boom Blast, or the Vengeance torso25.jpg #Vengeance Torso) and skills that increase damage (most notably Brawler.png #Brawler, Bloodlust.png #Bloodlust or Sneak attack.png #Sneak Attack). This can result in very long "kill chains", up to cases where an operative can singlehandedly clear the whole map.

This trivializes the challenge and breaks immersion.

Some of us feel that even when the skill does not refund more AP than those spend on the skill, it can still be too strong with extreme mobility builds that take advantage of damage buffs and skills that reduce AP costs.

Suggested Changes

Until the end of the turn, the next attack after a kill costs 2 AP less

Reasoning: prevents net generation of AP from kills

Alternative:

Until the end of the turn, the next attack after a kill costs 2 AP less, can't use any skills or abilities that cost WP after casting it

Reasoning: skill too strong already, synergies with other skills can be OP

Manual control.png Manual Control

Take manual control of a turret or vehicle weapon and shoot at a target (3WP 1AP)

Issues

Using Manual control.png Manual Control on turrets is a very cheap (in AP) and reliable way of dealing massive damage, making the game too easy.

There is some discussion as to whether this is due primarily to

  1. Amount of damage that turrets deal and that they have too much ammo
  2. Technician Technician being able to cast Manual control.png an unlimited number of times, only limited by AP (which can be refunded via Rally the troops.png #Onslaught)
  3. That each device can be activated an unlimited number of times

However, there is a general agreement that to some extent all of these elements contribute to the above-stated issue.

In addition, some players feel that this is also immersion breaking because it unexpectedly stretches out time - why is the device capable of taking an unlimited number of actions?

Suggested change

Reduce damage and ammo capacity of all turrets

Take manual control of a turret or vehicle weapon and shoot at a target, limited to one use per turn per device (3WP 1AP)

Reasoning: prevents a device from being activated more than once, more respectful with the integrity of the time-space continuum

Alternative:

Take manual control of a turret or vehicle weapon and shoot at a target, limited to 2 uses per turn (3WP 1AP)

Reasoning: prevents a Technician Technician from spamming the skill, easy to understand

Sneak AttackSneak Attack

Damage dealt while not spotted is increased by 100% (passive)

Issues

There is general agreement that

  1. the damage buff of +100% is too high in general but some of us think it is necessary for the crossbows, which is probably more likely a problem with the weapons itself
  2. it stacks too well with buffs from other skills (Bloodlust.png #Bloodlust, Brawler.png #Brawler), perks (Reckless Reckless and weapon proficiency perks), researches (Vivisection and Moon Data Analysis) and combined with skills that reduce AP cost (Adrenaline Rush #Adrenaline Rush, Quick Aim #Quick Aim, Boom Blast #Boom Blast, Rage burst.png #Rage Burst and Vengeance torso25.jpg #Vengeance Torso); this allows dealing absurd amounts of damage, like 1016 with a Scyther Scyther for one hit and 1 AP (multiplier of 3.39), or one-shooting a Scylla Scylla, using Rage burst.png #Rage Burst and a Deceptor MG Deceptor MG. See Damage Map for concrete numbers
  3. the condition ("not spotted") is trivial, as at most it requires a single casting of Vanish.png #Vanish per turn

Together, this

  1. trivializes the challenge
  2. means there are no interesting tactical choices in using this skill, beyond the meta combinations; it's a pure massive damage increase for all attacks as a result of reaching LVL7

Suggested change

In general, nobody is happy with this skill and everybody would prefer if it was replaced with something else.

Nevertheless, here go some suggestions:

While not spotted, attack a target with a proficient direct fire or melee weapon dealing 50% extra damage. Character will be revealed unless weapon is silent (4WP + standard AP cost of firing the weapon)

Reasoning: 1) reduces damage buff, 2) prevents the damage buff from scaling further with Quick Aim #Quick Aim, Boom Blast #Boom Blast, Adrenaline Rush #Adrenaline Rush and Rage Burst Rage Burst, 3) introduces a double cost, of WP and loss of stealth, to make decision to use skill none-trivial

Quick Aim Quick Aim

The AP cost of the next shot with proficient weapon is reduced by 1 (3WP)

Issues

There is general agreement that

  1. Allowing an unlimited number of 0 AP attacks is bad because they are free attacks, which can make the game too easy. However, some of us think that discretionary (on the player's turn) free attacks are always bad, while some of us think that what's bad is that they are unlimited.
  2. The skill is too spammable: it can be used any number of times, the WP cost is easy to recover (as killing enemies refunds spent WP) and there is no reason not to use it every time as a means of increasing damage output by up to a 100% (for 2 AP weapons, or if considering 3AP weapons used twice in the same turn); optimal choice is no choice, no choice means no tactics.

Suggested change

The AP cost of the next shot with proficient weapon is reduced by 1 (3WP), limited to 2 uses per turn

Reasoning: prevents spamming the skill with 1AP weapons to get free attacks, but allows the most common use of the skill to shoot twice with a sniper rifle per turn and keeps a limited synergy with 1 AP weapons; also similar solution to Dash Dash, so easy to understand

Alternative

The AP cost of the next shot with proficient weapon is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1(3WP)

Reasoning: prevents getting free attacks altogether, but allows the most common use of the skill to shoot twice with a sniper rifle per turn

Note that some of us feel that these suggestions, though improving the skill overall, don't address the fact that casting it is a "no brainer" because of how easy it is to recover WP in the game and it would be good to add accuracy penalty to the shot.

Boom Blast Boom Blast

Reduces the cost of using explosives by 1 AP and increases their range by 50% until the end of the turn (5WP)

Issues

Explosives can be particularly powerful weapons because they do Blast Damage Blast Damage (and typically Shred Damage Shred Damage) damage, have area of effect and don't require Line of Sight. They also scale too well with damage buffs, such as those from Sneak attack.png #Sneak Attack and Bloodlust.png #Bloodlust.

This skill allows a single operative to use a launcher and a mounted weapon, or throw up to 4 grenades and use a mounted weapon or shoot the Vidar Grenade Launcher Vidar Grenade Launcher an unlimited number of times (when used together with Ready for action.png #Ready for Action), in a single turn, at very long range.

It also allows reloading launchers and mounted weapons, and firing 1destiny3.png #Destiny III for 0 AP.

This trivializes the challenge, making the game too easy.

There is general agreement that being able to use explosive weapons (and 1destiny3.png #Destiny III) for 0 AP is most responsible for this.

There is some discussion as to whether the extra 50% range plays a relevant role, or the ability to deliver a large number of explosives at different points on the map very accurately (as with grenades using a high-strength build).

Suggested change

Reduces the cost of using explosives by 1 AP to a minimum of 1 and increases their range by 50% until the end of the turn (5WP)

Reasoning: prevents using mounted weapons or Vidar Grenade Launcher Vidar Grenade Launcher for 0 AP

Alternative

The AP cost of the next use of explosives is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1 and their range is increased by 50%, limited to 2 uses per turn (3WP)

Reasoning: prevents using mounted weapons or Vidar Grenade Launcher Vidar Grenade Launcher for 0 AP and limits the number of explosive that can be used per turn

Adrenaline Rush Adrenaline Rush

All abilities cost 1 AP until the end of the turn, can't use any skills or abilities that cost WP after casting it, Accuracy reduced by 50% and you are Dazed dazed the next turn (5WP)

Issues

General comment: There seems to be close to universal agreement that Berserker training.png Berserker skillset is uniquely unsuited for its nominal role of melee fighter

There is general agreement that:

  1. The skill is not useful to its class outside of a meta build; there is no reason to use it for melee attacks (Vengeance torso25.jpg #Vengeance Torso is a much better option in every regard) or with the Nergal's Wrath Nergal's Wrath (an unpopular weapon, that even at double DPS isn't impressive, especially for a capstone ability).The real utility of this skill lies in using 3 AP weapons, which 1) the Berserker training.png Berserker is not proficient in, and 2) do not fit the class nor the skill thematically, all but forcing the player into using Berserker training.png Berserker as a meta class.
  2. The skill is too effective in meta builds (with Bloodlust.png #Bloodlust + RapidC.png #Rapid Clearance/Sneak attack.png #Sneak Attack + Deceptor MG Deceptor MG/Sniper Rifles /launcher): even when the meta-Berserker training.png Berserker is unable to clear entire maps on its own, it can deal too much damage, trivializing the challenge.
  3. The malus piled on the skill (50% accuracy malus, Dazed dazed next turn and can't use WP abilities) in reality further pigeonholes the Berserker training.png Berserker into contrived meta builds and prevents certain natural synergies (like Stomp Stomp, Tentacle Attack Tentacle Attack and all Priest Priest active abilities), while the Dazed dazed next turn malus simply forces the player into giving all Berserker training.png Berserkers the Armored Head mutation Armored Head mutation.

Suggested change

All abilities until the end of the turn cost -1 AP to a minimum of 1 AP, but cannot gain any WP. Does not work with Quick Aim #Quick Aim, Boom Blast #Boom Blast or Rage Burst Rage Burst (or Sneak attack.png #Sneak Attack, if changed as suggested) (5WP)

Reasoning: makes the skill useful for Berserker Berserker's nominal role, while allowing a much wider range of interesting synergies for multiclass builds (for example, a Heavy/Berserker training.png that can Jet Jump, melee strike and Stomp Stomp on the same turn). Clear and easy to understand

Alternative:

After taking a shot with proficient weapon move up to 3 tiles and attack with melee strike or bash for free (5WP)

Bloodlust Bloodlust

Damage and movement are increased proportionally to the health lost (up to double) (passive)

Issues

There are several problems with this skill, directly connected to the general problem with the class as a whole, in that its skillset is inadequate for its enunciated role (melee fighter).

  1. There is general agreement that there are problems with the way the skill is triggered and the speed and damage buffs obtained; nobody likes that the damage and speed buffs can be triggered by friendly fire or not healing the Berserker Berserker between missions, but for different reasons:
    1. Some of us don't like that the only way to control the amount of HP lost is through friendly fire/not healing the Berserker Berserker between missions, as this makes the skill less useful unless you attack your own operative, which some players are reluctant to do and is immersion breaking (how can the soldier remain under the effects of Bloodlust.png #Bloodlust for an injury suffered a month ago?). At the same time, some of us feel that being able to control the amount of HP lost makes the condition to obtain the benefits of the skill trivial.
    2. Some of us feel that the game ordinarily doesn't favor having an operative with low HP: it's too risky, as there are no bleed out mechanics, using the skill for melee is a sure way of getting the Berserker Berserker killed. However, some of us think that the skill could work for melee as a high risk high reward proposition, but that right now it's an unattractive option because the skill works just as well with ranged attacks without any risk.
  2. There is also general agreement that the speed and damage buff can be abused in a meta build, particularly using other skills that further increase damage (Sneak attack.png #Sneak Attack, Brawler.png #Brawler) or Speed (Frenzied.png #Frenzy), and those that allow recovering AP (RapidC.png #Rapid Clearance and Rally the troops.png #Onslaught), as well as skills that reduce AP cost of attacks (Adrenaline Rush #Adrenaline Rush, Boom Blast #Boom Blast, Quick Aim #Quick Aim and Rage Burst Rage Burst).
  3. The general feeling is that this skill is not very useful unless employed as an ingredient in a meta-build, in which case it is very much OP.

Suggested change

A variety of very diverse changes may be suggested, but the general consensus is that a serious discussion has to be preceded by a clear indication whether the Berserker Berserker class and/or this skill in particular can be geared specifically towards a melee role, or whether it has to stay as it is now; an abstraction that could be potentially useful for any class/build.

Onslaught Onslaught

Refunds 2AP to another operative within 10 tiles, can only be used once per turn by the same soldier (cost 4WP and 2AP)

Issues

The same character can be the recipient of multiple castings of the skill by different soldiers ("Cheerleading"). This is immersion breaking, because a single soldier ends up with 8 AP or more (where is that time coming from?), and somewhat OP, in that you can channel AP towards an Uber soldier that can optimize their utility.

Suggested change

Refunds 2AP to another operative within 10 tiles, can only be used once per turn by the same and on the same soldier (cost 4WP and 2AP)

Alternative:

Refunds 2AP to another operative within 10 tiles, can only be used once per turn by the same on the same soldier (cost 4WP and 2AP)

Reasoning: no reason to stop an operative from casting the skill twice, if each time it is cast on a different soldier

Vanish.pngVanish

Move within 5 tiles and disappear from view until the end of turn or is revealed by contact with mist (4WP)

Issues

Allows free movement equivalent to 1 AP with 20 Speed and makes achieving stealth trivial. As stealth is the prerequisite for Sneak attack.png #Sneak Attack, it also makes the condition for that skill trivial.

Suggested change

Move within 5 tiles and disappear from view until the end of turn or is revealed by contact with mist (4WP 1AP)

Reasoning: adds a real cost to the skill; as it already allows movement for 1 AP, cost is reasonable

Brawler Brawler

Bash and melee attacks deal 50% more damage (passive skill)

Issues

This skill is not useful to Heavy Heavy outside of meta builds, either 'basher' (more on that below) or meta multi-class melee builds where this skill is used to buff melee damage (for example, Assault /Heavy, or Infiltrator /Heavy, either of them in combination with Vengeance torso25.jpg #Vengeance Torso).

Bashing can deal too much damage when compared to melee (see #Bash and melee), which is unintuitive, as a proficient and dedicated melee strike should deal more damage than a bash, and when compared to the DPS of heavy weapons (more often than not clubbing with heavy weapons is preferable to shooting with them), and the drawback for bashing - damage to the weapon - is insufficient to compensate for the much higher DPS.

Some of us think that this is because damage to the weapon is not sufficient (25% of damage dealt - 20, for armor of the weapon); as weapons get repaired for free after the mission this drawback would only be effective if there was substantial risk that the weapon would be destroyed. Some of us think that damage to the weapon is not enough of a drawback, as it can be avoided by carrying many weapons.

Summing up, this is another skill (like Bloodlust.png #Bloodlust and Adrenaline Rush #Adrenaline Rush) that is not useful for the class when played outside of meta and too useful as a meta ingredient.

Suggested change

Some of us feel that the skill should be removed and replaced with something else. It doesn't really fit the sandbox approach where all skills are useful to all classes, since it's only useful for melee. It's also singularly uninteresting, being a straight, unconditional buff to damage. Some of us think that it should be at least moved to Berserker Berserker, as it would fit its nominal role.

Just a suggestion for a heavy-oriented skill, 'Anchor':

Enter stance that gives +50% accuracy with heavy weapons, cannot move or use any skill, need 1 AP to get out of the stance. Requires wearing heavy armor

War Cry War Cry

Limits the AP of all enemies within 10 tiles to 2 (3WP 1AP)

Issues

  1. the number of enemies that are afflicted by a single casting, or, put another way, that 360°, 10 tiles, no LoS is too generous and makes the game too easy, as some enemies only have 3 AP ranged or 2 AP melee attacks which they can't use, and enemies AI often is unable to handle the War Cry status, wasting their remaining AP
  2. it's immersion breaking, especially for large Pandorans, particularly Scylla Scylla, and that it works through any wall or obstacle.

Suggested change

Limits the AP of all enemies within Line of Sight in a cone10 tiles to 2 (3WP 1AP)

The cone to be of 60° and between 5-8 tiles high

Reasoning: limits the number of enemies that can be afflicted with a single casting

To address the immersion breaking aspect of the skill, it could be renamed suppression and tied to a special attack with the main weapon that always costs 1 AP, would be extremely inaccurate/low damage, but would grant the - 2 AP penalty to any characters caught in the cone.

Also, immunity/resistance to the effects of the skill for Scylla Scylla and perhaps Siren icon.png Sirens and Chiron icon.png Chirons could be added.

Ready for action.pngReady for Action

Reloading and inventory management costs 0 AP (passive skill)

Issues

Some of us find it immersion breaking that this skill can be used to allow operatives closely packed together to share a single weapon and to reload it for free. Some of us don't see an issue with this.

For those who do see a problem, the issue is that all manipulation of inventory, whether giving or receiving items is done at 0 AP cost. This is what creates a situation where the operative can get a weapon from soldier A, reload it, give it to solder B, who will fire it, then the operative will take it, reload it, and pass it on to soldier C, without anybody using up any time (or paying AP) for equipment sharing.

Suggested change

Reloading and inventory management of the operative costs 0 AP (passive skill)

Alternative:

Reloading and, inventory management of the operative and giving items to other characters costs 0 AP (passive skill)

Other

Vengeance torso25.jpg Vengeance Torso

Issues

  1. There is general agreement that the synergy between Vengeance torso25.jpg #Vengeance Torso and current RapidC.png #Rapid Clearance is too good, as with sufficient buffs you can one-hit kill an enemy, recoup 2 AP, use one for movement and another for the one-hit kill, etc.
  2. There is general agreement that Vengeance torso25.jpg #Vengeance Torso is the optimal melee option, making any melee build without it highly inefficient by comparison. This is also lore / immersion breaking in that Synedrion.png Synedrion does not have any melee weapons, and has to use Anu.png Disciples of Anu weapons, while Anu.png Disciples of Anu and its Berserker Berserkers are particularly unsuited for melee even as a cross-class build. This is because viable melee builds are
    1. Heavy / Infiltrator to maximize damage taking advantage of Brawler.png #Brawler
    2. Assault/ Infiltrator to take advantage of Dash Dash and RapidC.png #Rapid Clearance, with Sneak attack.png #Sneak Attack
    3. Assault/ Heavy to take advantage of Dash and RapidC.png #Rapid Clearance, with Brawler.png #Brawler

By contrast, all that Berserker Berserker can offer is the speed buff from Bloodlust.png #Bloodlust (the damage buff from Brawler.png #Brawler being preferable in all other cases), and that only in a contrived meta-build to take advantage of extreme mobility. Particularly, there is no sense in using Adrenaline Rush #Adrenaline Rush for melee when one can have Vengeance torso25.jpg #Vengeance Torso.

The problem at heart is that this a piece of equipment that gives an AP discount on an attack type, thus making it the to-go option for any build that is to specialize in that attack type.

Suggested Change

Defense Matrix: After a melee attack on an enemy, Vanish.png #Vanish for free

Reasoning: removes the 1 AP attack, replaces with something that fits the Shinobi theme, similar to Templar's Momentum in WOTC. Possible uses: attack an enemy from behind to stun them and gain Vanish.png #Vanish, then attack a different enemy benefiting from Sneak attack.png #Sneak Attack. Synedrion could eventually get a lower damage 1AP weapon to fit this playstyle

Bash and melee

Issues

Bash and melee can deal too much damage when compared to other attack types, see Damage Map, or the comparison below:

Bash (30 STR, using heavy weapon) Bash (35 STR, using heavy weapon) Melee (Marduk's Fist) Melee (Marduk's Fist + Vengeance Torso) Deceptor
Base damage per AP 150 175 80 160 140
+50% from Brawler.png brawler 225 263 120 240 -
+20% from Close Quarters Specialist Close Quarters Specialist 195 210 104 208 -
Brawler.png + Close Quarters Specialist 255 298 136 272 -
+50% from Bloodlust bloodlust 225 263 120 240 210
Brawler.png + Close Quarters Specialist + Bloodlust 330 385 176 352 210
+10% from Reckless.png reckless 165 193 88 176 154
Brawler.png + Close Quarters Specialist + Bloodlust+ Reckless.png 345 403 184 368 224
+10% from vivisection research 165 193 88 176 154
Brawler.png + Close Quarters Specialist + Bloodlust+ Reckless.png + vivisection research 380 443 203 405 246
+10% from Moon Data analysis 165 193 88 176 154
Brawler.png + Close Quarters Specialist + Bloodlust+ Reckless.png + vivisection research + Moon Data analysis 414 484 221 442 269
+10 damage per attack from Mark for Death mark for death 160 185 85 170 260
Brawler.png + Close Quarters Specialist + Bloodlust+ Reckless.png + vivisection research + Moon Data analysis +Mark for Death 428 494 231 452 389
  • Melee can benefit from Sneak Attack sneak attack, but not so bash, which means that melee can get can additional +50% (Sneak Attack has to replace either Brawler.png or Bloodlust)

Suggested change

See Brawler.png #Brawler and Vengeance torso25.jpg #Vengeance Torso:

  1. Brawler.png #Brawler could be replaced with something more useful for Heavy Heavy
  2. Bash should do more damage to weapon
  3. Bash should do less damage than dedicated melee
  4. Vengeance torso25.jpg #Vengeance Torso should not reduce AP cost of melee attack.

Advanced Lasers

Gorgon Eye-A Gorgon Eye-A, Scorcher Scorcher and Destiny III Destiny III

Issues

  1. Advanced Laser Technology only requires basic Synedrion.png Synedrion and NJ.png New Jericho Research. As reaching aligned diplomacy status with both factions is very easy for experienced players, usually they get them before obtaining the inferior piercing technology variants of these weapons (Advanced Technician Weapons) and often at the same time as they gain access to basic variants.
  2. All Turrets are OP:
    1. they deal very high damage and are very accurate; they are an extra soldier that you carry around in your backpack
    2. make for small targets and are well protected, so difficult to destroy for most enemies; compared to their firepower it naturally creates a certain imbalance (very damaging, highly protected unit that can be added to the battlefield anytime)
    3. AI handles Turrets (and Drones) very badly, acting like extreme version of Deploy Decoy Deploy Decoy, except it shoots and hard to kill; as such Turrets can draw a lot of enemy fire and take a lot of it, and they have Return Fire Return Fire too (see #Certain AI behaviors)
    4. Can be abused to extreme degrees with Manual control.png #Manual Control
  3. Gorgon Eye-A Gorgon Eye-A has too high DPS for an accuracy comparable to that of an assault rifle.
  4. Destiny III Destiny III is too accurate for the damage it can do.

Suggested change

  1. Require Advanced Technician Weapons research in addition to Synedrion.png Laser Weapons technology as a prerequisite for Advanced Laser Technology.
  2. Reduce damage of Destiny III Destiny III to 60-70 per shot, reduce ammo to 9-18, increase cost of ammo. Lack of proficiency should have an impact in use - either chance to fumble or reduce burst to 2 from 3.
  3. Reduce damage (burst and damage per shot; or perhaps give all Turrets a burst of 8 and reduce damage) of all turrets, ammo (3 shots per mag? To make reloading during a mission something necessary), make AI ignore them, and break if stepped on.
  4. Reduce damage of Gorgon Eye-A Gorgon Eye-A to 35 (making it a 12.5% increase, vs current 25% vs lower tier Personal Defense Weapons)

Biochemist Biochemist

All attacks that damage a target also inflict 1 Virus Damage virus damage (per bullet)

Issues

  1. Lore and immersion breaking: how does something like this even work and how can operatives have this power?
  2. Absurdly OP with long burst weapons, particularly using Rage Burst Rage Burst, while very ineffective with single shot weapons.

Suggested change

Gain viral weapons proficiency with +20% damage and accuracy

Reasoning: although this is faction technology and there are only 2 variants, it is quite common to have a bunch of Redeemer Redeemers dropped by Triton icon.png Tritons and Priest Priests, so even players who don't align with Anu.png Disciples of Anu could make use of them. The weapons are low damage and can take a 20% buff

Frenzy Frenzy

Instil Frenzy frenzy in friendly characters within 20 tiles for 2 turns, increasing their movement by 50% and making them immune to panic (1AP, 4WP)

Issues

There is general agreement that

  1. the speed buff scales too well with speed of both player and AI characters, making already fast characters too fast. This can make the game too easy (as extreme mobility is one of the main ingredients for a Terminator Build ), and sometimes too challenging (some Pandorans are already very fast, and Frenzied.png #Frenzy allows them to unexpectedly traverse the length of the map). Some of us also consider that this is immersion breaking, as even more than "super-hero" it just looks "glitchy" (see Assault/Berserker kitted out for speed with Agile Legs + Aksu Body Armor + Quarterback and Thief + Bloodlust.png + Frenzied.png #Frenzy casting Dash).
  2. it makes the other head mutations much less interesting options by comparison

Suggested change

Instil Frenzy frenzy in friendly characters within 20 tiles for 2 turns, increasing their movement by 50% 6 and making them immune to panic (1AP, 4WP)

Reasoning: making Frenzied.png #Frenzy a flat bonus would still make the ability very strong, adding the equivalent of a little more than 1 AP of movement with max speed to all friendlies, but it would benefit the low speed characters relatively more than the already fast ones

Certain AI behaviors

Note: This refers to some very specific AI behaviors, rather than general improvement of AI

Issues

  1. Fire: enemies run into fire, even when it means outright death or disabled limbs
  2. Recover: enemies cast Recover when with recovered status, missing their chance to act when afflicted by Virus Damage Virus Damage.
  3. Healing: human enemies obsessed with healing themselves and friendlies, will even run into fire to heal a friendly.
  4. Turrets and Drones: enemies prioritize attacking Turrets and Drones, which are hard to hit (also, Turrets have Return Fire Return Fire)
  5. Triton icon.png Tritons with Blood Sucking Arms Blood Sucking Arms: prioritize healing over killing potential; the Triton will attack targets with full HP instead of killing a weakened operative. This accomplishes very little, as the Triton will be killed next turn.
  6. Last step out of cover: enemies use last movement point to step out of cover

Suggested change

  1. Enemies shouldn't run into fire if it's going to disable a limb
  2. Enemies should use turn with recovered status to act
  3. Enemies shouldn't heal unless they have less than 50% HP
  4. Ranged enemies should ignore Drones and Turrets
  5. Triton icon.png Tritons with Blood Sucking Arms Blood Sucking Arms should prioritize attacking enemies with low HP
  6. Don't take the last step 🙂